Some enchanters are disappointed at the upcoming addition of disenchant as a loot option. I’m personally quite happy with it. I have an enchanter of my own and I sympathize with the hassles that enchanters go through in instances and the like.
The enchanting process now
Here’s the steps involved in taking an item and sharding it for the group:
- Need roll the item
- Look for it in your bags
- Select disenchant
- Find the item again because you forgot where it was
- Actually disenchant it
- Tell everyone to roll
- Wait an extra 15 seconds for the AFK guy to roll
- Open trade after closing within range
- Actually trade it to him
The enchanting process in 3.3
If there’s an enchanter, all the group needs to do is hit the disenchant button. The process of item sharding and trading is done for you. The sharded item goes straight to the winner of the role without the enchanter having to do anything.
Thank goodness for this feature.
Enchanters benefit because they don’t have to spend the time or effort fishing for the item, looking over the rolls and figuring out who gets the item. Is this actually a pain in the ass? No. The first few times, it’s manageable. But if you’re in a raid and you’re handing out shards at the end or if you have a lot of items to hand out, it can get annoying. Just for a streamlined process alone makes it worth it.
Everyone else benefits because there is little risk of having shards stolen or conveniently “forgotten” about. Heck, I’ve forgotten to distribute shards once or twice (or more). Right now, I just greed stuff in instances hoping to win it and keep the shard for myself. But with this in place, the group will immediately know if there’s a disenchanter present and can get a crack at the shard legitimately via the updated looting system.
The argument against
Actually, this is a stance that has gone back for a long time. The traditional argument goes something like this:
Herbers, miners and skinners get to keep their own loot that they acquire. Why can’t enchanters keep the shards?
It’s only fair right? No one rolls for herbs or for ore nodes unless they’re an herbalist or a miner. It’s assumed to be theirs with little discussion. Why then are we enchanters not allowed to be entitled to these shards? We did invest a ton of gold and time to our professions. It’s only fair that we reap more of the benefits. I know I personally experience runs where there are 4 drops and I don’t get one at all.
Why I disagree
With that in mind, an enchanter then would have every right to roll on every drop in the instance regardless of whether or not they can use it on their character. Every item is viewed as something usable that contributes to the enchanter and pays off for the time and gold they’ve invested into enchanting.
Hey, I totally understand where they’re coming from. I must’ve sunk 5000 gold into it myself just from getting from level 70 enchanting to level 80 enchanting.
But just imagine how chaotic it would be if enchanters had the right to roll on anything just so they could disenchant it.
I can’t buy into that.
All tradesmen have paid their dues in leveling up their skills and each has their own unique set of perks and benefits.
In the item’s base form, without an enchanter present, it would be greeded and vendored.
In shard form, the shards can be greeded and then sold for greater value. I just don’t quite see how the presence of an enchanter automatically means they get all the shards simply because they’re the only ones able to disenchant it and convert it into a form that can sell more.
What you can do
Remember that setting loot rules ahead of time can always be done no matter what you’re doing.
As an enchanter, I’ve politely requested asking specifically for one shard if it is determined that we’re on a shard run. Group members will usually understand. Try asking for a change.
Of course, you could always do the completely dick move and wait for everyone to hit “shard” on the loot option before hitting “greed”.
((Of course, you could always do the completely dick move and wait for everyone to hit “shard” on the loot option before hitting “greed”.))
Okay, this brings up a question that I have to ask. I was talking with a friend, and my interpretation had been that the need vs. greed rolls would be go in priority: need before greed before sharding. He explained that, according to the patch notes, it sounds as though greed and shard are ranked the same; it’s just that if you win and you selected ‘shard’, you’ll have it sharded.
This really bothers me because it means that if a pally, shammy or druid wants to roll on a cloth healy piece, for example, they would have to hit greed (in a random group), but then if any of the other four people who selected ‘shard’ won it, the piece would be DEd and lost forever. That bothers me so much that I could only reply that Blizzard wouldn’t be dumb enough to set it up like that. So, how DOES it work on the PTR right now?
.-= Jennifer´s last blog ..PUGs and Laziness =-.
I am not going to change how I manage sharding, partly because of Jennifer’s post, and partly due to common sense. In raids or in heroics or anything else, shards get passed out fairly. It’s not merely left up to the stupid in game roll option. Wait til the end of the run, shard everything, pass out the most reasonable combination of items. In wrath that’s usually one abyss and a couple dream shards, rarely more dream shards+abyss than the actual 5man group. Top roll gets the abyss.
I’ve already been dealing with those I’m not impressed with that feel selling an item was worth more gold to them than getting the shard. (Easy fix: GTFO of my group) Now we’re going to have to level that with the disenchant option. And now I’ll have to deal with those greedy SOBs that think they should just keep hitting disenchant and hoping they win all the disenchant drops, rather than handing the disenchants out fairly at the end of a run.
Joy. /angryface
.-= @valkyrierisen´s last blog ..Practice for roleplay =-.
@Jennifer I can’t find a link to it atm, but Greed had the same priority as DE. It was mentioned that if those were all that is selected, then they would both roll off against each other.
@valkyrierisen I think this solution was implemented for cross realm groups. From what I know/heard, if you grab an item and DE it, you cannot give the mats from that to a person from a different server.
In cross-server PUGs, you can only trade conjured items and dropped loot that the other person is eligible for. I assume this means that BoE items once won are not tradeable. This is to avoid cross-contamination of economies (and presumably to also prevent gold farmers from now spamming “we have 300k gold on this battlegroup”)
Also, in auto-filled PUGs (regardless of whether they are all from your server or not), loot is fixed on need before greed, which is also being changed to respect primary armor class and primary stats. So a moonkin can’t need on spellpower cloth, and a DK can’t need on spellpower plate. I don’t believe current spec is taken into account, so a feral druid can need on spellpower leather without issue.
The PTR patchnotes have the specifics:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html
Specifically: “Disenchant works exactly like Greed except if a player wins the Greed roll, they will receive the disenchanted materials instead. Players who choose Need will always win the item and will always beat those that choose Greed or Disenchant.”
.-= Karatheya´s last blog ..The Importance of Dealing with Dead Weight =-.
I always thought they should add some sort of a chance to proc something that is bop’d to the enchanter. Like an extra shard or something. Give the enchanters a reason to want to DE stuff. Maybe even make it only active in dungeons (so the marketeers don’t go crazy with it and crash the price of shards).
@Jennifer
I agree w/ you on the problems with the mechanics of this, mostly because many people use the following method for loot while running an instance (specifically with a PuG):
Need = Main Spec
Greed = Off Spec
Pass then Roll = Sell/Shard
To alleviate this issue, I think Blizzard should have added one more loot option to the mix, so that it would be something like this:
Need (Main Spec)
Need (Off Spec)
Greed [to sell]
Disenchant
Where in this case Greed & Disenchant could have the same roll priority. I think that would correct a lot of the problems with determining looting in instances that the current system causes.
@kavika
I like the proc idea. It would be really nice to have an enchanting “spec” similar to the tailoring/alchemy/etc. specs where you could spec into Dust/Essence/Shard and proc additional mats depending on the results of the item.
I do de for people. I do chants for people.
that out of the way…
This is like rape. These are my levels and I should still have the option to simply greed on the greens. This takes what little control we have over the AH away from us.
Since i’ve already decided i’m not using the new LFG system, i’ll probably just run with guildies and friends.
also probably going to /reroll JC. I’ll toss chant on one of my alts so I still have a de toon.
So meh, F em.
I have a better system:
tell people you cant enchant or DE, and take the items for yourself and DE them and sell the shards. Why should we reward idiots in a PUG with more loot if they suck? If the group is nice I dont mind but half the time the player’s are asses.
DONE
.-= Angry Gamer´s last blog ..angrygamer_blog: @Warcraft #wow #dailywow New Blogpost: My weekend update on my BE Priest http://tinyurl.com/yl6htxq =-.
@kakiva That is definitely a win/win situation. I’d love to see something like that implemented!
@Jennifer @valkyrierisen It *is* pretty unfortunate that a plate/mail/leather caster can’t Need roll on cloth. I’ve done it before, and it certainly helps until your own armor class comes along. This, I think, is the answer to Blizzard’s concern of keeping people in their own armor class. However, I’ve only been a proponent of “down gearing” only if no one else needed it. As a Resto Shaman, I’d never roll against a Priest or Tree for gear designed for them. I had a lot of bad experiences of a boomkin rolling on spirit/spellpower cloth gear when I needed it as a holy priest. For the softer classes, this is a big help to them. Clothies can’t roll on plate, so it’s hard to see a plate-wearer roll on cloth.
I am going to roll at the end, or Need all the time, that way no one gets the shard.
It sounds ninja, but let the enchanters benefit from the profesion, or put other gatherers to do the same.
As an enchanter, you dont see as much gold as a herbalism, or miner.
I know that since patch 3, i never say i am an enchanter, why are you supposed to give away something you need to lvl your profession? Dalaran recipes are bougth with shards, remember that? So, change that also… Give away something like “enchanting dust” and let us use that to buy those recipes, even if the shards go to another one, the dust has to be left on the enchanter.
I like the couple of win-win solutions mentioned here. As an enchanter I would like an “opt-out” button when I join an instance. Just so I have the “choice” to DE something. My herbalist isn’t forced to herb and my miner is forced to mine, nor my engineer for that matter. Personally I don’t like to attract a lot of attention in PuG raids. Less drama means more enjoyment for me.
It is really disappointing that Blizz, in designing this system, has made it so that if I need a caster mail item for my holy pally, I have to roll greed against four other people rolling disenchant.
This is for an item I could equip right now, and I have only a 1/5 shot of getting it, otherwise it’s going to be sharded automatically and that’s it? The winner can’t even talk it over with you and trade the item afterward, since it’s already been destroyed.
If I PuG in this system, I’m always going to try and be leader (or a guildie or friend) and I’m always going to request in the loot rules that we don’t use the DE option, lest an upgrade someone truly needs gets accidentally sharded.
It’s highly stupid.
@Rhii: I’m sure if the caster mail item for your pally is a significant enough upgrade, you can roll need and no one will question it since you’re the one carrying the party on your back ^^.
@Matticus You can only roll need on your primary armor type. Pallies can only roll need on Plate, etc.
@Nigel: Hmm, I thought it was more intelligent. I thought the way the system is in place is that a Shaman and a Paladin would be able to roll need, and the system would award the Shaman regardless. I guess not.
This is probably going to sound borderline trolling, but Blizzard has got to be smarter than assuming the people are nice. If enchanters cannot equally greed than shard for their own use, then the group might as well press “Need” every time. At least, you can trade items within designated hours, so if people can trade if they need to down-class-level for stat upgrades.
I also don’t get why classes cannot roll non-wearable items. If all 5 worked on the instance, shouldn’t it be up to the 5 to decide what to do, instead of using a flawed system to dictate who gets what?
I can see that this will be a great benefit to raids due to time savings, but in a PUG 5 or even 10 man, this has “ninja”, “unfair” written all over.
Plus, with Cross-Realm PUG, even if someone “ninja-need” the loot, you’ll have no way to “ignore” or report that player, since you’ll probably never group with him again…
@Thespius
Exactly! And while I don’t have a problem with a pally rolling greed on a cloth piece, for example, I do not think it fair that in a party with an enchanter, they would have to compete with 4 other people who want a shard. That is totally unfair to see gear destroyed when there is someone who will use it.
@Spazmoosifer
I think your proposed system would go a long way to alleviating my concerns, at least.
@Matticus, @Rhii
That is exactly what has me worried. If you are in a randomly determined PUG (either cross server or not), Blizzard is saying that you’ll be forced to a very specific need vs. greed system. If you aren’t a pure cloth-wearer, you will NOT be able to roll need on any cloth. While I agree with their rationale, what I don’t agree with is how the DEing option is screwing over anyone who might wish to roll on a cloth piece (that they will use) if no pure cloth-wearers want it.
.-= Jennifer´s last blog ..Circle of Healers (or I can’t believe I’m doing this…) =-.
The greed having the same priority as de, Blizzard dont have a lot of choice. If green>De then how many idiots rolling greed for vendor before the enchanter gives up on clicking de? Not many I would guess. If greed= de then sometimes upgrade sare going to get disenchanted.
While i understand the why(To avoid x-realm trade), I still dislike this new system. I dont trust rng,37 heroics before I won my first orb, 688 greed rolls witthout Greedy and this new system does not have the forced rng of how my server does things. A got orb, B got upgrade, C,D,E get shards. Instead one lucky person can and will win the lot.
From a financial point of view margins lowered,lost on disenchanting and more people with mats in their hands looking to get a enchant for 0-5g tip compared to buying a scroll where they are looking at a 20g markup over mats is annoying more then anything else.,
I know Blizz is doing this to keep market cross contamination from occurring, but this loot system is broken before it’s even introduced. If I were half as intelligent as I think I am, I’d come up with a better plan (which I don’t have because I’m not that intelligent) that left the DE option completely out of it or let enchanters of any class roll greed on anything as long as they were at or above the skill level needed to DE the item.
As of right now, whenever I run Heroics, I’m in there for the sole purpose of getting shards, since I don’t need any gear or emblems. I greed roll on everything that drops and whatever I win I DE after the party is disbanded and keep the shards. I don’t sell them on the AH. I use them to get more enchants or to actually enchant items. Even with this system, I get very few shards which is why I still don’t have all of the enchants available from the shard trader. This new system will do nothing but make getting shards into the hands of the enchanter next to impossible without buying them from the AH for who knows how much. I think the cost of end game enchantments are about to go way up.
My now retired main of 3 years is an enchanter. And I always boggled at some of the discussions around shards and who deserves to get them. Personally, at the end of any run, I would tell folks how many shards we had and asked all interested parties to roll. Often, friends and guildies would just say keep them. But I always asked. Yes, it cost me a ton to skill up enchanting, but that doesn’t make every item in the instance more mine than anyone else’s just because I can DE it IMHO.
.-= candy´s last blog ..Day of the Dead Festivities =-.
damn! i am an enchanter myself, but i agree with matticus of him saying we enchanters should be given priority if gears that have not been rolled on specific class, its understandable this will be DE’ed. same with whoever is a miner, or herbalism.
at the start of the run, I always ask who are other De’ers then that i can roll against him/her if also an enchanter. but im up to whatever the group rule is, as long as everyone is on same page should be fine.
.-= Christine´s last blog ..Tier 10 Set Bonus =-.
I can see both sides on the debate about sharing shards, though in the end I think it’s best to share them out. But the worries over loot rules seem a bit overstated for me. We’re talking about heroics here — when’s the last time you needed loot from heroics? In my experience, most players (including my druid) who run heroics are interested in the badges and maybe stone shards, with enchanting shards a distant second.
My rogue is a fresh 80 and is just ready to tackle heroics. So she’ll be rolling Need on a good bit of loot. But even so, the odds of having someone else who a) still gets upgrades from heroic gear and b) competes with a rogue for such are pretty slim. Worst case would be if I group up with, say, a druid healer who wants that leather for kitty offspec. I still can’t see getting all worked up over rolling on that loot; I’m likely to have other options via badges anyway.
I think the complaint is based on why enchanters are forced to service the group in a PUG run. Are herbalist/miners forced to share their gatherings based on rolls?
Also, not all 11million players are veterans of WoW, and some are twinks who wanted to be geared up ASAP. Being denied rolling on down-class armor is just plainly unfair; they might as well change the design so that each armor class is can only wear that class gear (plates will never be able to wear mail or leather or cloth, etc).
And how is this preventing X-Realm contamination if the PUG has no enchanters? Items will just be traded any way. Not to mention that there’ll be an influx of shards in their home server because players now have a higher chance of gaining shards (thus drive the cost of shards down?). Blizzard has to come up with a better way to fix the economy of shards than forcing enchanters to perform a free service.
Perhaps a scroll-type-DE can be made and sold by Enchanters?
I don’t really have too much of a problem with this, i’m not a big disenchanter for groups unless i’m specifically asked to. I usually just pass on an item i don’t need as, if i’m honest, i’ve got shards coming out my….. ahem. Anyway, if they want to implement this, why not give us what my priest also gets as a tailor, chance to loot extra cloth off random mobs. so sure, the groups are getting more shards but i could be picking up some infinite dust, or what i don’t see enough of anymore, some cosmic essences.
and if you do start to run low on shards, just make like everyone else 🙂 something like this would def help me anyway, and i’m sure a few enchanters still levelling the profession.
@ people who say that enchanters don’t see as much gold as herbalists or miners – what are you smoking?
disenchanting and selling mats is currently my primary source of income. I make a hell of a lot more gold of that that I ever did from selling herbs/skins/ores with a lot less time invested.
that said – my major concern is with the need/greed issue and armor types. you know why boomkins roll on cloth? becasue sometimes its best in slot for them. sometimes its better itemized then leather. As an elemental shaman I’m wearing several pieces of cloth gear. Because its better then comparable mail piece that was, lets be honest here – itemized for a resto, not elemental shaman.
they way to fix this IMO would be to allow people roll need on upgrades that are not of their primary armor type, but the need roll for an appropriate armor type would have a priority. that way instead of item going to waste (and yes, shard is a bigger waste IMO opinion, then item being used), it would still go to someone who could use it. of course it will not fix the issue of someone rolling on a sidegrade vs a huge up for someone else, but that was an issue already so nothing changes there.
btw, I have 2 lvl 80 characters with enchanting. I have no issue disenchanting in groups and doing a roll at the end with highest winning abbyss (if there is one) lately, I’ve just been rolling greed with the rest of the group though, becasue pugs don’t care about shards all that much anymore. Even if you say at the start that you can DE, they still roll greed. /shrug.
It seems to me that people always argue that enchanters are just greedy and they feel that they have a better claim to items than everyone else because we can shard them and use the shards. This is a very black and white view of the game, and not how a lot of the enchanters I know work.
Personally, I roll greed like everyone else on items that aren’t going to be equipped. If I win the roll, I can DE it because the mats will be worth more than the item’s vendor value. If I lose, the other person can vendor it or tip me to DE it. Besides spamming trade to enchant people’s stuff for tips, selling the mats on the AH is an enchanter’s means of making gold. These are called professions in the game for a reason – we’re supposed to be making money off of them. I have no problem losing a greed roll to someone, but forcing me to DE for everyone (essentially) means that they are going to be able to sell those mats for more than they’d get for the gear vendoring and drive the prices overall down. So now, not only are other people making money off of my profession, but I’m making less money off of it as well.
In short, being an enchanter allows me to make more off of the items than vendoring them does. The difference in those prices is the benefit I should see as an enchanter – not the entire cost of the mats (an item drops that sells for 10g, I can sell the mats from DE for 20g, that 10g difference is my profit that only I should see as it’s my profession). Blizz, let everyone continue to roll greed and let me DE what I win through that system.