A number of guilds are beginning to have their members approach level 80. Now they’re stuck at a cross roads. Do I raid 10s or 25s? Setting a raid to Normal difficulty allows only 10 players to enter. Toggling it to Heroic allows 25.
First question GMs need to answer is what kind of raiding guild are you? I’m not referring to casual or hardcore or anything like that. I’m not interested in your style. I’m referring to your end game goals and intentions. When I formed Conquest a few weeks ago, this was the first question that popped into my head. I felt that it was important for a GM to define what their end game is so that steps can be taken towards achieving it.
I basically had 3 options when it came to guild endgame objectives:
- Strictly 10 mans
- Strictly 25 mans
- Both 10s and 25 mans
Not only that, I had to make a choice for myself as a player. If you think about it in terms of BC, this would’ve been tantamount to running SSC, TK, Karazhan, and 2 or 3 resets of Zul’Aman per week. I wanted to commit to no more than 12 hours of raiding per week because a lot of players have other things to do.
Looking at that list, I crossed 10 mans off the list. I am far too ambitious for that.
This left me with the option of either 25s or guild sanctioned 10s and 25s. I had to deliberate this a bit more. Having to organize both 10s and 25s meant extra organizational and logistical work on my part. Since most drops from 10s will be replaced anyway, it made much more sense to me as the GM to stick the guild into the 25s.
Factors
Organizational and logistical: I’d have to plan out raid days for 25s and I’d have to plan out raid days for 10s. I would have to run 2 separate raid groups which would involves its own unique set of challenges. I have to pick out the days for the right group. I have to ensure there’s enough tanks and healers. What happens if someone can’t make it? I’d have to scramble to find replacements. That’s too overwhelming for me to do.
Time: 12 hours of mandatory raiding per week is all I ask for. My experience in beta taught me that 12 is the right amount of time to spend in order to clear out all of the raid instances. To ask them to do more would tax their stamina and increase burnout which is something I want to avoid. Throw in 10s and I could be looking at 20 hours a week of raiding. I won’t even consider that.
Increased freedom and autonomy: By not making mandatory 10 mans, I give them the option of participating in it on their own. From a personal standpoint, I have almost no innate desire to run Naxx 10’s. I suppose that was a side effect of the beta. The 10 man instances are nice, but they’re just not my cup of tea. Between blogging and school, it’s difficult for me to find the time to run 10s on top of the 25s. If players have friends in different guilds, they don’t have to feel obligated to turn down runs with their friends for the sake of guild runs. I make it known that they are on their own. There’s always a few people in guild that feel otherwise and I’m sure they’re capable enough of organizing runs on their own.
Besides, I prefer Earl Grey.
At the end of the day, I decided to give my guys the choice. They can run whatever 10 man they like on their own time with whoever they want, however they want. Loot Council won’t be responsible for how the drops are done.
And it becomes one less burden. This belief plays into the concept of the path of least resistance assuming 25s are the primary objective.
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Awesome thoughts, Matt. I agree with you totally and I think this sort of process will lessen the burden for both your officers and your members. The only thing you MIGHT have to watch out for now, is “cliques”, meaning groups of people who plow through the ten mans to farm or obtain gear, but do not allow newer or outside members of your guild to perticipate.
For example, if you have a priest that needs a little push in gear to be more successful at 25s but cannot get included into already established ten man groups, your priest might get frusterated, and therefore, would become alienated by his or her own guild. That kind of stuff can happen without your noticing, and more often then not, people wont mention feeling dis included because it brings a sense of “lootwhoreness” or is just downright embarrassing to admit.
However, you seem to have a good group of people as far as I can tell, so this might not be a problem for you at all! I wish you good luck!
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Must say, I’m a big fan of the “do whatever you want” 10 man route. That being said, I have to chuckle at the statement, “12 hours of mandatory raiding per week is all I ask for” as after last expansion of doing 9 hours/week for over a year… I was burned out by the end and have no desire to raid that much ever again. (which isn’t to say the guild won’t, but that I will certainly take on a smaller role)
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Veneretio thats a great point. I honestly hadn’t considered what that actually meant as I was reading it.
If you got a part time job making only 8 bucks an hour that would be $4,992.00 a year.
Or to put it in more suprising terms. 26 days. All you’re asking is your guild members to commit one month out of their year to you. Nothing to sneeze at.
The other 11 months are free to do as you want.
Granted members are playing for their own enjoyment and more than likely will be on anyway. So it isn’t like they aren’t getting anything out of it. But I just hadn’t considered it in real world terms.
The “All I ask” does seem a little funny when looking at it that way.
Unfortunately it’s only $4,992.00 if you don’t pay taxes. However, I definitely enjoy raiding more than any part time job I’ve ever had.
Now let’s consider if you can raid from your part-time computer lab job… 🙂
The 26 days is pretty shocking, but I think about a conversation with a friend who had over 140 days /played on one of his four level 70 toons a month ago.
Then again, I’d like to see some numbers ran on how much money I’ve saved paying 15$ a month plus internet costs to play wow versus even a couple of trips out to the bar.
I don’t know know if anyone reading has ever done EQ/EQ2 style raiding. The guild I was in was light hardcore. 5 days a week, 4-7 hours a day, 20-30hrs a week This was due to 7-day lockout timers with no persistant instances. If you left ..goodbye see you in 7 days. People stayed till your armour was broke or the raid was called.
The real hardcore was 7 days a week with 24/7 on-call lists with around 5 min response times to get contested mobs. Could be where I started raiding but I personally don’t think 12 hours is alot if you really want to raid since even alot of casuals play more then that. The only thing i’d raid long term now is my daughter’s tea party deserts as I’m being forced to be a guest lol. 😛
Just my 2 cents.
Alas I am too hardcore to do this :(, I like the idea of raiding 3 nights a week productively, but then I am on more and think, might as well raid a bit, :P, easy to be a 7 day a week raider in the end.
Other problem is that 10 man content is at the moment a joke, as are heroics and dungeons for anyone that hit BT in TBC, there is no real challenge to bite into at this stage, I had hoped for more 10 man progression like ZA and not like it is now, where 25 man has almost got some challenge (more people to make mistakes). Alas at the moment the raiding game is based on the old “its difficult because 20 people in the raid stand in fires”.
Good luck on the 3 day thing though, wish I could get a decent guild doing that.
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12 hours a week is kinda the lower limit required for a 25 man raid – especially if its the learning phase. Even if one can only play half the time (say 4 days a week), its 3 hours a day. It takes me about 2-2.5 hours to find pugs to do two 5 man instances. Considering this, 12 hours is nothing plus one gets run a 25 man instances where loots are better and above all, its fun with a good group of players/friends – I think.
@Shadow: Yep, in the grand scheme of things, 12 hours isn’t much compared to the amount of hours other guilds put in.
I think it is smart to only focus on 25-mans. You could go for a system where certain nights are for 25-mans and those nights are mandatory. The other nights you plan for 10-mans. If you have enough players, you can send in 2 groups of 10 men or even look at going into another 25-man if you can create a proper raid for it. This would create a system where you can mainly focus on the 25-mans, but also have some control over the 10-mans. Maybe appoint some raid leaders for the 10-mans?
I used to do 12 hours a week, then decided that it was far too much. I go out of town a lot on weekends to see friends and family (I’m in college) and I need flexibility. 3 raiding days, Preferably one on Sunday afternoon/evening is wonderful for me. Currently we’re doing Tuesday/Wednesday 3 hours each night, no more, maybe a little less if it’s 8:45 and too late to start another boss. Then 3 hours Sunday evening. This is enough time to have fun in the 25 mans, do 10 mans whenever (Saturdays, off days) and not be stressed. Different careers/lifestyles give different schedules. Going the 25 man route with 10 mans on off nights was a good choice. Also, dictating some raid leaders (if they don’t already do it) to run 10 mans helps also. At least 2 groups running, with the other 5-10 people swapping in and out each week if they want. Or, they may have a dedicated group of friends that goes.
Having now done 10s and 25s in LK, you’re not ambitious enough. 10s are a lot harder. The gear’s not as good, so you ahve to play better, and you can’t slack off, since you’re 10% of the raid, not 4%.
If you can’t handle 10 man progression your slack.
We didn’t make a list like yours, but that’s what my guild decided too: we [the officers] will organize the 25-mans (4 nights a week, but not as hardcore as you, to get a raider tag people need 50% attendance) and the 10-mans are free to PuG. We’ve raided up to BT before Wrath so most of the players are perfectly capable of getting a group together and do a 10-man, so we’re not worried.
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