I was drafted on Friday to compete in a CS: Source tournament at the VS Gaming Arena down here on Broadway. It was a great tournament and it’s an excellent LAN center which boasts 18 of the fastest computers I’ve seen ever. They also have an X-Box 360 and a Wii for players who want to have some fun on the console (Halo 3 anyone?). They’re one of the first LAN centers in Vancouver that I’ve heard of to have acquired a copy of Team Fortress 2. Anyway, after some last minute strategical work, we placed 3rd (Don’t be amazed, only five teams showed up). If I wasn’t play WoW and if I had a better computer, I would be doing this more often. Vancouver has a huge untapped LAN scene and hopefully VS Gaming will evolve into something big in the future.
Today’s piece is long and will bring all elements together for what I believe is the best possible answer to everything for a freshly formed raiding Guild where people may not be used to each other quite yet. It will cover a basic DKP system, discouraging DKP hoarding, and a loot hierarchy.
We’ve covered economizing loot items. We’ve covered player/loot discretion. Both have their strong points and their weak points. Now lets combine the two together and see what we can come up with. I’m going to use T1 and T2 loot as an example.
Effective DKP
Effective DKP utilizes the zero-sum DKP system along with an extra element: Attendance. A frequent complaint of Guilds is inactive players who attend raids sporadically. There is no consistency at all over their attendance. Effective DKP would help ensure attendance. In addition to the zero-sum amount that you would normally get from taking down a boss, an attendance percentage value would be added to help weigh what your final DKP total is. The formula would be the total number of points you have earned multiplied by the attendance rate over a period of time (60 days, 45, or 30 days) would determine the final figure. Choosing Effective DKP rewards players who attend scheduled Guild events.
An example would be Player A earns 100 DKP. However, his attendance has dropped to 40%. Player B has earned 40 DKP but has attended 100% of raids. Both players would effectively have 40 DKP.
Countering People Hoarding DKP
A controversial opinion has involved the use of a loot priority system by awarding members with items who have attained some important status. Players are hoarding their DKP in the hopes of utilizing it in later dungeons to acquire significantly superior loot. For example, players forgo their Tier 1 pieces in the hopes of skipping right to Tier 2. It is important to remember that the objective of the game: High end equipment allows completion of difficult dungeons. As they progress in difficulty, the items become superior to that of items obtained earlier.
An incentive that has been used in the past is to prioritize higher level pieces to players who already possess the initial high level pieces (ie, a T2 piece to a T1 player). Proponents of this system argue that in this manner, players will take their T1 piece n the route to T2 thereby helping the organization as a whole. Every piece no matter minor or trivial helps the team progress as a whole. Opponents of the system argue that this system, while forcing players to upgrade their initial gear, does not benefit the organization. This would concentrate items on specific players only. This system would gear out up a small group of players instead of the entire group. It would far benefit the Guild in the long run to have a player equipped with T1 and another player equipped with T2. In this manner, the potency of players has equalized to a similar degree. The success of players in a raid instance would not have to rely on one or two players who have received three epic quality items. It allows greater flexibility in player and class deployments to answer any threats or obstacles.
Another incentive to persuade players to take T1 items is to include a DKP reimbursement system. A player who takes T2 would receive a refund on the points used to obtain their T1 piece. In a sense, their T1 piece is received free when the player helps the organization. The economic benefits of this would be enourmous. Tier 1 items would help greatly. Not only does the system encourage people to take pieces, it allows other players a chance at earning T2 pieces who do not have T1. This is extremely important as it helps distribute both levels of loot accordingly.
Opponents of the system would argue that it would be unfair for older, veteran players if newer players who already have a T1 piece, come in and take advantage of the discounted price and reimbursement. There are several different methods to account for newer players. One way is to play such players on a lock where they will not be able to obtain any items for a set period of time unless other members of the Guild do not need the item. This way, points can still be accumulated but they cannot be spent. Once the period has expired, that player is allowed to compete for and bid on items.
Another method is to only reimburse players who have received items within that organization. Players already equipped with T1 upon membership would be required to pay the full upgrade price regardless. Both solutions help deal with newer players.
The Hierarchy
Finally, the third part in issuing and awarding items is to incorporate a hierarchal system. An example would be a Guild with three levels. The lowest level would have players start at the bottom with the low attendance or new Guild members. Although new members have a low chance of receiving any rewards, it is not entirely impossible. There is still a chance for them to receive items. The second tier would consist of long standing members of the Guild w ho have not distinguished themselves but their combined capability helps the Guild. Their presence has been steadfast and enduring. Their persistance has helped the Guild progress. The third tier would comprise of members who have stood head and shoulders above everyone else. They would consist of the leadership like class leaders or officers. These people are the backbone and spine of the Guild. The core players help hold the organizationtogether. Ideally, they would recognize the value of Guild progression and will not hesitate to pass gear to benefit the raid as a whole.
The proposal for a tiered level of loot priority would be structured so that the third level would have option first, followed by the second level, and then the first level. This helps ensure that new guild members do not simply join and then leave after receiving an item. But the most part, the third and second levels of membership would have equal loot priority.
Conclusion
No system is better then that of human discretion. Always use it. Different ways to handle loot are useful for different types of Guilds. Find out what works best for you.
We keep our dungeons seperate. What you earn in points (we call them Brownie Points) is for that dungeon you raided only. Gruul’s is seperate from Mag which is seperate from SSC.
We net points for showing up ontime whether you get to go or not. This equals people always showing up! Yay! You get points for how many hours (per hour) you spend in the dungeon learning fights. And you get points for each baddie you take down.
We then use our points to secretly bid on an item. Each item has a cost in points. Say: Cool sword costs 10 points. Person A bids 15 points. Person B bids 20. No one else bids. Person B wins the cool sword, but only pays 16 points (what she would have had to pay to win).
Think of it as ebay for WoW! Only…it’s faster…and you get the stuff in the condition you expect it in.
Jeni, that’s a fair system to use. The only thing that stops me from recommending that is the fact that multiple tables need to be maintained (Multiple eqDKP databases? Hmm…). It’s hard to find people willing to dedicate that kind of time. What happens when you drop a raid from your schedule? What happens to the points then? (Like would Gruul points carry over to Mag points which would carry over to SSC points?)
Attendance is a horrible DKP modded system. It punishes people for having a vacation, and makes them less likely to want to come back afterwards. It also gives people who aren’t going to be sticking around, better gear whenever they have excess time to play WoW.
Lets say you have a 30 day Policy, and someone (Adam) with a normal 100% attendance policy goes on a 2 week real life vacation. At the same time, you have winter vacation, and a college student (Brad) who normally has 50% attendance gets to hit 100% attendance for the same month starting on the same day Adam goes on vacation. When Adam get sback, they have a 50% attendance policy, and Brad has a 75% attendance policy. By the end of the first month, Brad has 100% Attendance rate, and Adam still has 50%. I think punishing someone for an entire month for missing a few days to go on a honeymoon, or to a family reunion is a little bit excessive, especially if they told you well in advance, and that isn’t the normal playstyle.
DKP already accounts for items vs. attendance. If its not working for you, you’re either giving out too many points, or you need to implement a DKP tax.
Zero-Sum only works if everyone equally wants loot. If you have a large discrepancy in gear, the system won’t work.
Suicide Kings is very good, it is effectively a zero-sum dkp but without DK points. Its very simple – there is a list of players and when you get some loot you go to the bottom of the list. If two people want the same loot, the higher person in the list wins it.
Of course its slightly more complicated than that but thats the gist.
Different guilds have different goals, which is why there will never be a one-size-fits-all DKP system.
That being said, there’s a fundamental flaw with the “discounted t2 for t1 owners” approach that is hard to ignore. A raid that has a player who owns t1 and t2, and a player who owns a blue item is worse than a raid in which the t1 and t2 items are on two different players.
You say the reasoning for DKP discounting is so that players will not try to skip tiers, but it’s hard to believe that this reason justifies gimping the raid in a very real way. A better way to avoid skipping is to not allow players to skip upgrades. That doesn’t mean that players can’t go from blue to t2 or t1 to t3, it just means that if a t1 drops and there are people in blues that can use it, one of them is taking the item AND paying for it.
To try to skip a tier is pretty much a slap in the face of your guild, given that if you’re in blues and you have reason to believe you might get t2 soon, then you’re probably one of the least responsible for that t1 which dropped. Essentially a skipper is riding the efforts of his teammates and does not even have enough respect for their effort to enjoy the fruits of it. You’re wasting their time. Once your guildmates realize this you’ll probably be gone anyway.
I suspect that the real justification for upgrade discounting is greed. Players want to upgrade cheaply because they want more items, and the less you have to pay for them, the more you can get.
Let’s look at the common misconception that DKP hoarding is a bad thing. The less DKP players spend, the better! Because the less they spend, the less items they take. The fewer items they take, the more the items are distributed amongst the raid. The greater the distribution, the fewer the sidegrades and small upgrades. The bigger the upgrades, the stronger the raid.
Saving DKP for later instances is not necessarily a bad thing. It shows confidence on the player’s part that their DKP has enough value that it’s worth saving. That’s a really good thing! Guilds that foster this sentiment have, on average, higher lifespans. The less DKP a player has, the less investment he has in the guild.
Ultimately this point is somewhat moot because the player that under performs is going to find it harder to get into raids, and it’s hard not to fall behind if everybody else is upgrading and you’re not. If you’re outperforming without taking loot out of the pool, then what’s the problem? Maybe the loot you’re skipping will help the under-performers catch up. Or you can give them a few tips.
Ultimately when choosing a DKP system, guild goals are the most important thing. If the #1 goal is to clear content as fast as possible then loot council or hierarchy makes sense, but in doing so you’re placing the importance of guild stability down there with the importance of defending your capital city against the other faction. Favoritism rarely fosters long term loyalty.
Worth nothing: The guild I’m in has been around since WoW alpha and has lasted to this day. The DKP I earned on our first Lucifron kill can still be spent on a Leo drop. That’s a major accomplishment for a WoW guild, wouldn’t you agree?
I saw this thread in a “stared” Google Reader feed. I am looking at DKP in my guild and trying to get the kinks worked out of the system before we officially start Hyjal/BT.
I like the idea of a zero sum system and I am going to present that to my officers and see what they think.
Thanks Matt!
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