This week on The Matticast we are going to be covering the pros and cons of various loot systems, but we wanted to get reader feedback first. Which loot system has worked best for you? Have ones you just hate? Answer our poll and leave us your feedback in the comments.
Which Loot System Do you Prefer
- Loot Council (24%, 63 Votes)
- EPGP (24%, 62 Votes)
- Need/Greed (23%, 61 Votes)
- DKP (13%, 33 Votes)
- Suicide Kings (10%, 26 Votes)
- Other (Leave In Comments) (6%, 16 Votes)
Total Voters: 261
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Main Spec/Off Spec for us. With a balance of who’s gotten the most loot that evening and if the item could benefit someone more. Seems to promote more of a “team” environment.
I have a preference for EPGP, but we are currently using Suicide Kings and it’s working out fine. I think it’s fair enough.
My guild used EPGP for 25-man raiding throughout Wrath and during our attempts at 25-man raiding in Cata. In Wrath, 10-man raid specifically did NOT use EPGP. Maintaining separate scores for different raid types isn’t possible and we decided that not accumulating/spending EPGP in 10-mans was more fair to the 25-man groups than the alternative.
Now that we’ve more or less abandoned 25-man raiding we use a basic /roll with a ML to pass loot to the winners. It works in our guild because it’s generally full of level-headed people who can be happy for any upgrade to the team as a whole rather than just their own personal sets. More often than not, we end up with nice-offs:
“You take it.”
“No, you.”
2 minutes of this pass…
ML: “I’m giving it to BillyBob because he rolled higher. You two work it out amongst yourselves. Let’s keep moving.”
EPGP or GTFO.
With decay
Heavily modified DKP system, with positive and negative decay (if you’re under 0, you gravitate slowly back to 0), second-slot (reduced price for side-grades), and a bunch of other stuff.
Our basic loot system is /roll 100, but we use Home Team Advantage. Essentially, we only have 10 members rostered, and when someone will be out I ask in guild a few days ahead of time to find a sub. Folks who sub in for us will not get loot ahead of the rostered members.
This system works for us because it’s a 10 man raid within a megaguild (600 members or something; we’re one of 5 or 6 raid teams, etc). The rostered team is pretty well balanced in terms of what loot folks are looking for (1 bear tank, 1 shield tank, 1 leather healer, 1 mail healer, 1 plate healer, 1 plate dps, 1 mail dps (agi), 1 leather dps (caster), 2 cloth dps (nonspirit).
Multi-list Suicide-Kings has worked well.
Have a list of your members for the higher priority items like weapons & trinks, a list for mid priority items like pants/gloves/boots, and a list for lower end items like neck/rings.
This has the advantage of a relative drama free system that is clear to the members of who has priority to an item, and the officers don’t have to deal with a point system or anything more complicated than a list of names. Also this solves the typical hording problem that SK may have, where members skip smaller upgrades for a higher tier item and ultimately weakens the group.
I haven’t found a DKP system yet (Suicide Kings, etc) that can’t be manipulated – especially when you have multiple people working together. Loot Councils work, but then your control is in the hands of others.
For our 10m we use a Need/Greed.
Personally I like GDKP – with the caveat that you can’t bid someone up if you can’t actually use the item.
We use a modified dkp system which is carefully explained to applicants in their interview process and posted in the member section of our forums. These are the steps to a decision, after raiders have put their names in for consideration on an item:
1. Members (and higher) have priority over Recruits. (Basically, it’s main raiders over trials.)
2. If the decision has not been made by question 1, those who have met the minimum attendance threshhold have priority.
3. If the decision has not been made by question 2, who has the higher dkp? (The “tie-breaker”, so to speak. Items have a fixed dkp price–no bidding.)
Off-spec items are only available if nobody wants it for main spec and are decided by “who has gone the longest from the time they got their last off-spec item”, basically. (Off-specs cost no dkp. There is a consequence if someone tries to abuse this to get main spec items, but to date, nobody has.)
BoEs are available for main spec only. (Otherwise, they are sold to fund cauldrons and new content repairs.
Legendaries are decided by officer council.
The advantage to this system is that there is no doubt who will be getting main spec items, as any raider who wishes may check the attendance and dkp of each raider on our website. There is no opportunity for favoritism or the perception of it.
So far, it’s worked for us.
In Wrath we used DKP for 25 man raids and Need/Greed in 10 man.
Now since Cata we have a Loot Council for our 25 man raids.
When coming to loot after a fight, one item after another is posted in the raid chat. The player which need the item post their current item. Depending on the current item and things like raid attendance, performance, class, role and so on, the Loot Council decides who gets the item.
Off-spec items are only given to player if no main-spec needs the item and also if the player in need actually plays his off-spec in our raids. This mostly applies to tanks and some dps who sometimes help with healing. All other items are disenchanted so we have enough crystals for enchants.
Need/greed with me playing Loot Master to ensure fairness and D/E unwanted stuff. We’re a ten man and I really don’t think most healthy ten mans need more than that. Half the time the winner hands the loot over to someone else because “she needs it more” anyway.
My guild uses one called Dibbs (though I believe ours is somewhat modified).
Basically the raiders accrue Dibbs points for a couple things (mostly boss kills), similar to DKP. However your points are spent to roll in an extra roll phase rather than bidding on gear. Points lost are distributed amongst the other raiders.
The points are applied in a 3 phase loot roll. If you have more than 10 points, you (and anyone else meeting the criteria) can declare “Dibbs”, and roll in the first roll phase. Winning this will cost you your 10 points. Next roll phase is main spec, which most of our rolls wind up being. Winning this also costs you 10 points – but you can roll mainspec even with negative points. Lastly are offspec rolls, which have no points penalty (but are only considered offspec if the gear cannot be used for your mainspec, so locks and mages and such don’t roll this phase). That’s the basics of it anyway.
We’re using SK at the moment, and its good. I think EPGP is the better system, but harder to socialise to the team. I’d love to use open roll with common sense, but you always have to adjust for strange players.
/roll for main spec, /roll 101-200 for offspec. Once you win a mainspec item you can still keep rolling, but will always lose out to someone who hasnt won a mainspec that night. We share the love around.
We use a priority system – basically a 3 phase roll system. Each raider can prio one item per raid and if that item drops they get it. If more than one person has prio’d an item, then they all roll for it (although we’re all so polite it usually decends into a game of “no no, you need it more than me you take it”)
If there are no prios on an item, it goes to a main spec roll, then an off spec roll then shard or bank depending on binding.
Legendary items, quest items and shards are non-prioable and are decided by need/greed rolls
My guild use a modified version of the /roll.
We are a 10 man guild which helps as each raid day there is generally little competition for items.
When raiding our loot system is /roll 100 for main spec then /roll 100 for off spec. However, to be fair to all in the raid we don’t just allow everyone to roll main spec on every item that drops without penalties.
We apply the “loot debuff” each item of main spec loot you receive and if 2 people want to roll on an item the person with the fewest number of debuffs will win that item regardless of the outcome of the /roll 100.
At the end of every raid day the loot debuff is removed.
Off spec gear is free from the debuff system but we expect people to be fair and spreading the loot around means that the raid is more likely to succeed every week.
Like all loot allocation systems, we realise it is not 100% perfect or fair. However, this is a system that has been in use since Karazhan and is one that works incredibly well for us and prevents loot whoring without preventing newer members to get geared up fast if needed. To allow you to get an idea of how it works, here is an example:
Boss A dies and drops the “Trinket of Awesomesauce”:
Arthasloldk rolls a 98 and Legolassie rolls a 3.
Neither have a loot debuff Arthasloldk wins “Trinket of Awesomesauce” and gets a loot debuff.
Boss B dies and drop the “Pants of Godliness”
Nukem rolls a 53, Healyourass rolls a 65 and Legolassie rolls a 87.
Again nobody has a loot debuff so Legolassie wins “Pants of Godliness” and gets a loot debuff.
Boss C dies and drops “Chest of Enhanced Goodness”:
Arthasloldk rolls a 2 and nobody else rolls.
As the roll is uncontested, Arthasloldk wins “Chest of Enhanced Goodness” and gets a 2nd stack of the loot debuff.
Boss D dies and drops the “Pixxie Boots”:
Legolassie rolls a 99 and Pallyden rolls a 23.
Legolassie has a loot debuff so despite the lower /roll, Pallyden wins “Pixxie Boots” and gets a loot debuff.
Boss E dies and drops the “Finger of Derp”:
Legolassie rolls a 9 and Arthasloldk rolls a 100.
Legolassie has a loot debuff but Arthasloldk has 2 stacks so despite the lower /roll, Legolassie wins “Finger of Derp” and gets a 2nd stack of the loot debuff.
The following day, the raid reforms.
Boss F dies and drops “Slash Wrists”:
Arthasloldk rolls a 96 and Nukem rolls a 95.
Neither player has the debuff, so Arthasloldk wins “Slash Wrists”.
We use DKP halves. 30dkp awarded to raiders (and subs) per night with a bonus 10dkp for a first kill (once per night max). We also offer a 10dkp reward to a raid voted MVP.
MS bids cost you a 1/2 of your DKP with a minimum spend of 20dkp. Bidders can go into negatives.
OS bids cost 5dkp, with loot being prioritised to those who are likely to benefit the raid (e.g. a dps who tanks raids for us sometimes will get priority on tank OS than the healer who will never tank for guild raids)
Priorities are also built in;
MS raiders > socials/trialist > alts (not that we have alts in raids generally) OS > raiders > socials/trialists > alts
We occasionally get people whoring DKP but with halves, in the end they buy 1 item and they are middle of the pack again
The only issue we’ve had is the normalisation of loot for example, dirty dps can treat +spirit gear as MS now. That used to be a clear difference between heals/dps on gear.
Upy
I realy enjoyed some GDKP runs. They work by players bidding gold on items when they drop; the winner gets the item, pays their bid into the pot, and at the end of the raid the pot is divided between all the participants remaining in the raid.
This encourages staying till the end, provies a benefit to people who dont win, lets you get the item you realy realy want, and on the whole I liked it a lot.
Of the loot systems I’ve personally experienced (EPGP, DKP, Loot Council, N/G /roll) I have to say hands down EPGP is my favorite. It’s the one that seems most resistant to favoritism and people trying to manipulate the system, and at the same time, rewards effort more than simple roll.
Conceptually however, SK and Simbaria’s “GDKP” also sound like systems that appeal to me.
DKP is an okay system, but only if you’re running with the same set of raiders through an entire tier or the DKP awarded is not very high compared to the cost of an item. The first serious raiding guild I joined used DKP, but their DKP counters were only cleared at the beginning of a new tier/expansion and I joined halfway through. The result was that even though I had perfect attendance, needed the gear more than anyone else, (and was also out-DPSing and out-surviving many others) I got jack squat until the next tier came out.
Might I also mention that although I’ve heard a lot of success stories about loot council, my only experiences with it have been terrible. :\
That’s exactly why we use halves Elumine 🙂
We get a lot of Trialists or new raiders shocked to actually win gear they are bidding on 🙂 Halves means the DKP totals drop quickly when loot is taken, even the biggest whores will be lucky to outbid others on 2 items in a row.
E.g. Johnwhore is 700, Upy is 360
Johnwhore Bids on Item 1 and wins dropping his DKP to 350.
Johnwhore and Upy bid on the next item and Upy wins it because he had 10 more DKP than Johnwhore
The system normalises quickly entering into a new tier of content because the cost of gear goes up the higher your DKP amount is 🙂 like currently we’re moving from normals into heroics so those with high DKP are getting the new gear but they are middle of the DKP pack already.
Upy
Gotta say, Johnwhore’s got a pretty interesting name ^^. Gotta say though, interesting system and setup you’ve got.
What’s sad Matt is that’s his RL name too :S
lol
Our loot system depend on whether we’re in 25-man, or 10-man.
For 10-man, we use a need/greed system based on main spec or off spec (with allowances that if you’ve gotten loot that week, wait til other people have gotten loot before rolling need again).
For 25-man, we use Suicide Kings. It’s less of a hassle and provides less opportunity for favoritism than DKP or loot council, but works better than a need/greed system for 25-mans, due to headaches with keeping track of who’s gotten loot.
I personally can’t stand DKP, and have never used EPGP or similar. GDKP is fun, too.
The biggest issue I have is when you’ve invited more people to your raid than you can hold – the dreaded “players in reserve.” On our 25-man raids, there’s 2-3 extra players a night, after balancing. EPGP works, but you need to offer something for the folks on the bench, in particular if they wait on-line through the raid in the event they’re needed to sub in.