Are Easier Heroics Better in the Long Run?

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The patch 3.3.2 includes a few amendments to Heroic Dungeons and how they’re played.  Entire packs of mobs are being deleted.  Bosses abilities are being shortened or being made less frequent.  Fight mechanics are being made easier.  In essence, Blizzard is giving us more opportunities to blow through these dungeons with little to no effort.

I’m an educator at heart.  Seeing as though my life “endgame” is to be at the front of a classroom, it’s important to me that people learn the skills necessary to go through life.  How to write a proper business letter, how to analyze a novel or article, or how to put your thoughts in order and present them in a proper argument.

How does this translate into WoW?  Teaching players how to follow a kill order, how to manage small and large cooldowns, or how to CC a mob.  Remember some of the cardinal rules of this game that we’ve all learned?

  • If the ground changes, get out of it. Pretty standard stuff, except for rare circumstances
  • If the boss starts spinning with his huge weapon, move away from it.
  • If a really annoying mob is causing havoc, CC it. If possible, avoid DoT’ing it.

We learn these the hard way.  And, we have to utilize and execute what we’ve learned in the current content.  Ground changes?  Sounds like Rotface’s ooze pools on the ground.  Spinning mobs?  Marrowgar.  The need to CC a mob?  The mind controls in Lady Deathwhisper.

“You are not prepared!”

With the level of difficulty amongst the endgame content, more and more groups are getting frustrated with the lack of skill within the community of 80s.  I equate this to meeting people in the real world that don’t demonstrate even a sliver of mastery of their native language (slang and colloquialisms are fun choices but shouldn’t be your foundation).  How do you get through school without being able to speak or write properly?  How do you get to start raiding without having a knowledge of the fundementals?

Take Ahn’kahet (AKA “Old Kingdom”) for example.  Jedoga Shadowseeker is the boss that floats in the air, summoning an add to sacrifice.  If she succeeds, she hits a temporary enrage.  I remember wiping to that when people first started doing heroics.  The tank had to manage a cooldown; the healer was spamming big heals. This fight demonstrated the need for DPS to turn up the heat to down the add.  Even I as a healer would Smite/Lightning Bolt the add.

Now, it seems that Madame Shadowseeker only does this once.  Does this just mean everyone blows all their cooldowns (Shield Wall, Survival Instincts, Frenzied Regeneration, etc) to endure her short enrage and then they’re done?  The key to earning respect as a player with me is demonstrate a finesse of your skills, not be all RAWR OMG WTFBBQ DPSPWNAGE!!  You can be great player and still utilize all of your classes abilities efficiently.

“Time is of the essence!”

As these Heroics are being made easier and easier, that means people will be blowing through them faster and faster.  Making the value of the gear that people are getting lower and lower.  Follow this math:

Average of 4 badges (+ 2 from random) = 6 badges per run.

Clearing an instance in 15 minutes means 24 emblems an hour.

A whole set of T9 costs 210 emblems.

210 emblems / 24 emblems per hour = 8.75 hours.

Even if you play 3 hours/day, you could have full tier 9 in 3 days.

Given that, do I think it’s possible to really have a grasp of how to exist in a raid setting, possibly having an aspect of the fight rest on your shoulders?  I won’t say a flat-out “no”, but I’m hesitant.  I learned how to play my class through dungeons and heroics.  A fight like Rotface or Blood Princes is going to confuse players that haven’t had the ability to build an understanding of their class.

Consider it a slightly less horrifying version of a person who just bought their character on eBay that day.  Regardless if you’re a completely new player, or just levelling an alt, I fear that we’re starting to lose the building blocks to being a good raider to the ease of too much convenience.  (Sidenote: Notice I said “too much”.  I’m all for crafting the game so everyone has a shot, but there is a point when it goes too far.  I don’t want to go back to the days of needing to run alts through Karazhan to begin the gearing process for Black Temple.)

It’s like the economy (I know, a touchy subject).  If you start pumping more gear into the game faster, it devalues what’s already out there.  I guess the good thing is that people will be less freaked out by GearScore.  If everyone has a high gear score, more emphasis will need to be placed on player skill.  What good is a high GearScore if everyone has it?

“Lazy Sunday!”

“…WAKE UP IN THE LATE AFTERNOON!”  Sorry, a little sidetracked.  I love that skit.

Anyways, with Blizzard making things easier and easier, I fear they’re going too far.  ICC trash is already becoming AOE-able.  People are complaining about there being too much trash (yet, people complained about Trial of the Crusader not having ANY trash and being too boring).  Oculus is getting even bigger rewards.

I don’t want this game to become “just go in and blow stuff up”.  I like the challenge.  I like the dedication.  I like the workout.  I like the strategy.  Do I know how to create a balance with this?  Of course not.  If I did, I would be working for Blizzard.  I just don’t want the laziest crowd in the game to win over the hearts and minds of the game designers.

Now, I enjoy the mechanic of earlier ICC wings getting easier over time, allowing less progressed guilds to see the endgame content, but the latest epidemic of clueless raiders is troublesome to me.  How do you make the game more appealing to everyone, while still teaching those fundemental rules that we’ve all learned over the years?

What do you think?  Do you feel heroics are being made too easy?  How do you promote an understanding of class and basic fight mechanics amongst your raiders?

36 thoughts on “Are Easier Heroics Better in the Long Run?”

  1. I agree. I don’t even play WoW anymore the instances got so easy. I’m not a fan of a tank and spank fight or a AoE all the mobs until the boss fights. I miss having actual raids with CC required and some effort and maybe a little running around. Some people say that by removing 40 man raids that there are now more strategy. But my personal opinion was that there was a lot more strategy in the 40 man raiding days with MC, BWL, and AQ. I dunno, the game has gotten to bland for me to wanna play anymore.

  2. I have no opinion. On the one hand after my 5th Alt I kinda like to be able to gear up easily. I do agree though that these things have no challenge and become really boring. Blizz should make “Hard Mode” 5-mans that give out more lootz but require more strategy and stuff.. otherwise get your interesting content from raids and just treat 5-mans as a trick or treat bag.

    I thought the flying dude just got healed if you did not kill his add? I did not think he had a special enrage from that.. hmm..
    .-= sirfwalgman´s last blog ..And Now For Something Totally Different =-.

  3. It’s funny, my approach depends in part on which toon I’m playing:

    When I’m on my main (healer) I mourn a little bit the ease of things — it’s too easy, it’s too trivial, and I don’t have a whole lot of healing to actually do. I’m thinking about things like Shadowseeker doing only one ascension, or the last boss in DTK.

    When I’m on my warlock, I’m glad — each time the boss does that specially ability, it screws up my rotation! How can I keep my DoTs up when the boss is constantly going immune, or shifting into the astral plane or what not? Burst damage on the adds is not what I’m built for!

    I also have to say I really miss a lot of the elements from BC heroics and raids. We took a side trip to deal with trash by Dreamwalker last night. We looked at these great packs of mobs and I said ‘They’re humanoid — maybe we should sheep/trap’. Then someone said ‘They have a debuff — can’t be CC’d’. Oh well, another AoE fest. Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, and what looks better than multiple Blizzards, Rain of Fires, etc, pouring out of the sky? But I miss the finesse and technique a bit for sure.

  4. I am on my way to a second 80. And I have to say the dungeons are a trick or treat bag. I don’t do them to gear up. I use the AH and my main’s daily heroic for that. I use them for my triumph badges until I ding 80. Then grind out a little bit longer for tier 9 in a day or so.

    The problem is that in order to get the badges we can’t roll on upgrade gear for healers, because as a shaman sometimes the leather and cloth is an upgrade and it get sharded before you can say “Can I roll on…?” So I buy gear BoE and then just upgrade straight to tier 9. I have been grinding these heroics for awhile with my pally, and soon with my shammy. Then it will be time to grind up and gear up my priest and then druid. If there is still time my hunter.

    My point is there are very few people coming into the game at this point. Most are waiting til cata, or they have already played and quit. They are just coming back to see the Lich King. They know how to play. Or with you being a low level, you aren’t going to slow down those in 251+ gear. They are still going to blow it up way too fast for you to learn skills anyway. New players don’t have a chance to learn skill, when we overgear the content so badly.

    Really what is the current method for most bosses, stand still and blow them up. Mage Lord stack and pwn. Loken stack and pwn. There is no more running away skill anymore, until the ICC 5 mans. No more do people hide behind a tower. In the words of Krick, “Stand still while I blow them all up.”
    .-= Arkaneena´s last blog ..Wisdom is the Ultimate Shield Part II =-.

  5. I agree to some extent, but I don’t think the heroics are really as “easy” as you say they are from the change in mechanics. The changes they’re making are just making the mechanics less annoying. Really – what’s the point of having [said mechanic] when it happens immediately after it just finished?

    The reason the old heroics are a cakewalk is because the majority of people are incredibly overgeared for it. (I won’t say that about the ICC 5-man heroics, at least not yet.) But I also feel the function of heroics has changed as we’ve gone deeper into the expansion. They are there now as a means to get players adequately geared for end game content.

    Now you ask, “How do you promote an understanding of class and basic fight mechanics amongst your raiders?”

    Well, there’s a couple of ways:
    Firstly – Use that nifty LFD and do dungeons while leveling. You’ve got to learn at least SOME things while leveling your toon (even if you don’t instance at all).
    Secondly – Go raid. Be willing to go in there to learn and fail. Learn from your failures. If heroics are “too easy”, well, step up the challenge for yourself.
    Thirdly – Do your research. You’ve got internet access and there’s BUNDLES of information out there. Ask for advice and listen if someone offers (provided they’re not being a jerkwad about it).

    So, while I agree that having some challenge in the game and certain things require a good amount of work, I do not feel that heroics are “too easy” because of what Blizzard has done. They’re just adapting to the change in function that heroics serve, because of how the player base has progressed.
    .-= Darthregis´s last blog ..A Quick Shout-Out =-.

  6. I don’t see a huge problem with heroics in their current form, in light of the fact that we’re nearing the end of an expansion cycle. Just as the honor changes near the end of Classic made warlord gear ubiquitous, and the 2.4 badge vendor got everyone kitted out at the end of TBC, we’re seeing a (final?) nerfing of the expansion’s content, either directly (mechanics changes) or indirectly (gear inflation).

    What would worry me is if the changes continue into Cataclysm. The official forum whines about how CoS takes too long, Oculus is too hard/not fun/whatever and so on will hopefully not affect dungeon philosophy in Cata too much. I remember the challenge that WotLK heroics and the associated achievements were at the beginning of the expansion, and while I appreciate the ease of blowing through content I’ve done a hundred times before it is kind of disheartening to see it nerfed and think about how it was “back in the day”.

    I feel like as long as there’s challenging content of both types (raids and 5-mans) alongside easy content the game is in a fairly good place.

  7. I completely agree. Perhaps Blizz was hoping that the whole LFG thing would get people sharing knowledge about fights with newer players. But I am finding the opposite to be the case. A newbie running with a well geared group is just carried along. The group mostly ignores the intended mechanics of the fight and just pwns. Boss kills rarely go over 30 seconds. If anything, newbies are actually learning the wrong things. Stand under the boss because he’ll be dead in no time. Be cool and pull continuously regardless of the groups’ readiness. Hit whatever mob I want because the tank will get it off me or the healer will keep me alive.

    On the other hand, many times I have seen a well geared player realize that the majority of the group doesn’t know the fights and just drop group. Heaven forbid that it should take a little longer to do the run and that they need to do a little teaching. Either way, making dungeons easier is not going to help the situation.

    That said, I am pretty much sick of every heroic and am generally thrilled when I get a group that can just blow through and get it over with. I keep running them because I need more emblems of frost. But it really is a grind and not much fun any more. So there IS a part of me that’s happier to see things speed up.

    And, finally, the dungeon that really needed a haste bonus was Culling of Stratholme. Arthas needs a ‘talk faster’ enchant. At least there could be a fast mode if everyone has run it before.

  8. Heroic instances drop crap gear. Gear that wouldn’t even merit you a spot in Naxx or Uld. Being that there is gear that’s heavily overpowered for heroic instances, a group’s main limitation were moments where the boss wasn’t attack-able. I’ve been in man y groups that will bring Jedoga Shadowseeker to her first “air phase” in less than 5 seconds. I was personally fed up with watching a boss float around for 20 seconds while we wait to put that boss back in the air in the blink of an eye.

    Heroics are only easy mode if the grp is overpowered. We’ve earned the right to get that pesky daily done in under 10 mins. Heck, I’m in healing heaven when a flimsy mage or rogue pulls aggro – it gives me something to do other than toss chain lightnings, lightning bolts and the occasional lava burst.

    Also, T9.0 isn’t really that good. I’d never dream of taking someone into ICC 25 with 5/5 T9.0. There’s still the bracers, boots, trinkets, rings, weps, off-hands and a neck piece to get from raids. Easy-mode T9.0 is just Blizz throwing our alts a bone.

    Anything that Blizz does to cut down Heroic times overjoys me. Now, if heroics still dropped epic gems, I may have a different opinion on the subject. /missBC

    If you want something challenging to do, get the heck out of Heroics and go try for an insanity or 12/12 ICC.

  9. They not doing this to make heroics eaiser, just less annoying. People are running heroics tuned for people in ilvl 200 gear with 264 gear for their daily frost badges. As a result they kill the boss much faster then intended. This leads to mechanics like like shadowsong not working properly.
    Its really annoying when she spends the entire fight in the air because we kill her so fast. The same thing goes for many other bosses where they spend the entire fight in their air or transition phase because they simply die so fast. This change actually allows melee dps to actually, well dps her, rather then her just stay in the air constantly.
    Does this make the fight eaiser for undergeared and lower skilled groups, yes it does, but its really a quality of life issue so that raiders can get their frost badges and actually experience the encounters with some sembelance of the way they were supposed to be done.

  10. I really miss the hard heroics. I never thought I would say that. I remember how frustrated it was wiping our butts of in Arcatraz hc the first time we tried it. I remember how painfull BRD was and the need to use cc. Sheep right sap left pull back …..etc etc.

    But the way heroics functions in WotLK we could just all aswell roll a strong AoE class and go do AoE runs. Being a tank I dont like to feel that my role isnt needed and now it feels like that Im just tagging along being a just a slightly bit usefull on the bosses. My boyfriend who is a priest usually plays another game on the side or doing dps. I cant help to feel that there should be more to it a little more effort required.

    I always loved to go to an instance with friends or PuG but I have to admit that my eager to enter any WotLK instances have been greatly decreased.

    The other day when I did a daily random heroic dungeon someone in my group were complaining greatly that I “was reeeeeaaaly slow” as he expressed it. We did UK in 15 min ……. I know that Im old school but I feel that is somehow too fast for an heroic instance. It still doesnt feel right.

  11. I wouldn’t care except… they put dang frost badges on the heroics, so while I’m gearing in ICC 25-man, I have to go back into the same instances every day for like a year just for badges, the idea of running “old content” for new badges drives me crazy.

    They had to dumb them down and make them faster because people are bored with them and just want their free badges.
    .-= Lissanna´s last blog ..I like puppies. =-.

  12. I think that Blizzard is starting to draw perilously close the the line that SOE crossed with Star Wars Galaxies. SWG was a fantastic game with great complexity and challenge. There were insanely hard to obtain goals that gave you tremendous advantages over other players if you did the work.

    SOE eventually capitulated to the massive outcry of “this is too hard” and completely revamped the game for the crowd that wanted the “I Win” button right out of the gate.

    It ruined the game and they had a massive outflow of subscribers.

    I hope Blizzard sees the line before they cross it.
    .-= Wavemancali´s last blog ..Share The Love =-.

  13. I think the so-called nerfs are a very very good idea. We ARE overgeared and that’s not going to change. Staring at Svala floating around in the air at 10% after 10 seconds of fighting was not a challenge, it was an annoyance.

    And I don’t miss the TBC heroics. They sucked ass and some were hard to do even in T5. I don’t want to struggle in raids AND heroics. Just give me my free badges, let my alts gear up fast and let’s be out of here.
    .-= Jen´s last blog ..A holy paladin walks into Icecrown… =-.

  14. “They not doing this to make heroics eaiser, just less annoying.” – quoted from a comment above.

    This is exactly how I saw it. Svala Sorrowgrave’s Ritual of the Sword ability was never challenging to deal with. Reducing the number of times she uses RotS from three to one does not make the encounter easier, just shorter. (Yes, I understand that in many cases shorter means easier, but not this time – it’s not as though the healers were running OOM at the end of Svala.)

    Blizzard’s idea of a “challenge” does not include staring idly at temporarily Immune bosses or navigating convoluted trash patrols. Gear and familiarity (the former moreso than the latter) have reduced previously challenging encounter mechanics to mere annoyances. I wholeheartedly agree with Blizzard’s decision to remove them.

    Tobold had a recent few posts about “what makes an MMORPG hard” – in light of these latest changes to heroics, they’re definitely worth reading.


  15. I liked challenging heroics. I disagree that TBC heroics were hard, but some of them were challenging. Shattered halls, Mech, and Magister’s Terrace come to mind.

    The decision Blizz really came to was “do we want everyone to be able to run every heroic” and apparently the answer was yes. I remember when MT first came out, and you have to run the regular to get attuned to the heroic. I remember that one team of raiders (which I was in) started the heroic an hour behind when a similarly geared group with a better comp started the non-heroic. We finished the heroic 30 min before they did, because we were better at CC, at target transitions, etc. I want to go back to those days, rather than the current situation, where the dividing line between a mediocre heroic run and an epic one is measured in seconds.
    .-= Phelps´s last blog ..Sign of our Times =-.

  16. It’s been the people in heroics that have been challenging not the content.
    I guess if you can’t fix peoples attitudes or force them to gem and enchant, or be more aware of talent trees you can make the content easier so people with no skill can cakewalk it.

  17. I’d love it if heroics were harder. I hate feeling like I’m forced into content that bores me comatose as a prerequisite to running content I like.

    Also, some of those mechanics are linked to achievements that are now going to be disgustingly easy to get. I hadn’t gotten Chaos Theory yet, but now that he only spawns one portal, I betcha I will the first time I try it.
    .-= Rhii´s last blog ..Motivation Slipping… =-.

  18. I dont necessarily believe that heroics are becoming “too” easy. I still believe they require teamwork and communication amongst PuGs in order to complete them (believe me i have seen my share of wipes simply from newer 80s not knowing the boss fights) not to mention unlocking heroic achievements. I like the fact that blizzard is nerfing these dungeons because it makes it much easier for newer guildies to gear up quicker for raids, rather than having to wait weeks upon weeks for them to be able to raid. I think the best way for prepping unexperienced players with raiding is by covering the fights completely as a group through vent prior to entering and not giving up even after multiple wipes. Sometimes you have to crtique after each fight and pinpoint the weaknesses. Having confidence and patience pays off.

  19. I don’t think easier heroics are a good idea.

    While doing the random heroic on main and alts for frost badges lately I have met a surprising number of players who seemed to have no idea of game mechanics or their classes. Shamans never using ONE totem, hunter pets with growl on, mages starting to aoe before the tank has even moved forward for the pull, healers afk at boss fights surprised to find the group dead, whatever.

    I expect to find this when I join random instances on my lower levels, but not at 80.

    Easier heroics means the geared players who are just there for frosts will want to blaze through aoeing, running, staying in aoe damage fights – rejecting any attempt of cc etc : the unskilled players will get carried and geared but won’t learn anything.

    At least, when I join runs on my lev 30s/50s alts, we still wipe when someone makes a mistake or doesn’t know how/when to use a certain skill. After a few runs, people WILL learn their basics.

    But if you solo to 80 and then get equipped in 232 ilevel items without knowing whatever you’re supposed to be doing as the class you’re playing, you’re bound to end up wipeing my VoA/weekly raid etc 😛

    So, I would rather keep the heroics challenging for newish players.

  20. Recruitment for established raiding guilds also becomes a bit more challenging as the gear becomes easier/faster to get.

    While the iLvl inflation is a good thing for gearing up “tried and true” raiders, who may have taken a break, it presents its challenges when looking into new recruits.

    It means we’re now looking for Yogg-Saron kills (a simple execution fight), rather than a 5/5 TOGC or 4/12 ICC. I fell behind during TOC, in checking previous experience and eventually paid the price for it (having to basically replace people after over-achievers moved on). They had the gear, and current experience but were lacking 25 man kills in some of the Ulduar fights.

    I played my warlock in Vanilla, but learning how to properly manage my own abilities though BC heroics on my priest, did nothing but help when it came time for Kara–>Sunwell.

    A nice read this Friday ^^
    .-= Canes´s last blog ..What Did the Vampire Say….. =-.

  21. Heroics are becoming too easy.

    I’ve been disappointed with Blizzard continuing to downgrading them. It’s nice that people can get geared so easily… but it takes nearly no effort and it’s made players lazy. The playing experience they get from heroics teaches them bad habits. Like the author said, they are severely lacking critical class skill and fundamentals. The worst thing I’ve seen is that their patience for success is nearly non-existent. Players expect raiding to be as quick and painless as what they’ve been experiencing in the game (heroics…).

    As a healer, my personal solution during heroics is simply to let people who can’t perform correctly die. Maybe that’s too cruel but so far I’ve not been removed from a group. DPS didn’t move out of the shadow fissure? Oops, I didn’t heal them. Warlock life taps himself down to 200 hp and then takes an aoe dmg on the next pull? Dead warlock. DPS facepulls? Oh sorry, I’ll be right there to rez them. And so on and so forth. >:D

  22. Heroics are not too easy.
    They are being roflstmped by people that want their frost emblems from the daily, and are severely over geared for a simple heroic dungeon.

    If you take 5 people that just hit 80 in blues and greens I guarantee you that there will be wipes and people will just leave thinking everyone else just sucks. Th econtent is just as difficult; however, when you have people geared to the “battered hilt” it just seems trivial.

  23. Actually, I went into H-UK last week on my 200 blues mage with a group of similarly geared toons, and we roflstomped it too. And they weren’t particularly skilled (and neither am I at maging, for that matter.)

  24. Just as it should be H UK is of course the easiest Heroic. If you …
    nevermind all heroics have been easy from day 1. Just less annoying now.

  25. Hmm I am of two minds about this.

    It does get annoying that some instances are very easy now, and stuff that would have got you kicked a year ago just gets a chuckle. However, there does need to be a learning curve, too, and there needs to be a reason for the playerbase to do heroics, since they’re the main way that your average starting 80 can gear up. No one running heroics = big gear gap for that fresh 80 (roughly the distance from Naxxramas to Icecrown, to be precise, remember when you had to raid to gear up for the next raid? Lets not go back to that).

    So the plus side of the current system is that everyone has access to and a reason to run heroics, and new 80s (or alts you’ve left by the wayside) have a way to gear up without too much effort (although it isn’t 0 effort, because it does in fact take several days worth of play time running heroics to actually exhaust the badge vendors for one spec, and you have to gem and enchant it all, and hope you get the right weapon drops from the 232 heroics). The downside is that everyone is atrociously overgeared for these places, trivializing the encounters. That new level 80 is going to learn some bad habits, and nowhere is he going to be forced to unlearn them or wipe/get kicked (unless its really, really bad).

    Heroics don’t play the same role they did in BC. In BC, they weeded people out so only the best could break into the raiding game (until late in the xpac when Blizz significantly relaxed this). By the time you could clear heroic Shadow Labs and Shattered Halls, Karazhan, Gruul and Mag might not seem quite so bad.

    The goal in wrath is to get more people raiding. Heroics become less of a weeder, and a place to learn the basics. (this is what the normal level 70 instances used to do for people). No, you don’t learn how to become massively skilled, but you do learn that there are tanks, healers, and dps, and roughly how you match up to others. You learn basic boss mechanics (Keris–>Hodir, Volazj–>Yogg, UP Gormok—>Real Gormok, etc etc) and how not to stand in fire (maybe). Sure in the 200s, you could stand in front of dark smash all day in UK, and most healers now could keep you alive and you’d be none the wiser.

    However, if you go to the 232 instances, you better believe if you pull that crap you will probably die. Pull too much aggro in HoR? You ded. Stand in Ick’s poison nova? ded. Stand in the ae fire on the pit pulls right after Ick? Still ded.

    When wrath came out, the progression (and learning curve) was easy 200s (say, UK, Nexus), hard heroics (Halls of Lightning), Naxxramas.

    Now, the progression is 200 heroics, 219 heroics, 232 heroics. Heroics still teach new players, just the curve is adjusted and the old hard heroics are part of the easymode crowd. Different pixels, same effect.

    So are the 200 heroics too easy, allowing noobs to get easy eipcs? Perhaps. But the noobs are still going to be too busy wiping to Halls of Reflection to ever get raid invites, until they learn how to do it right.

    If not, teach them yourself or don’t invite them to your raids. Its not like there weren’t scrubs signing up for Naxx and Maly when Wrath started.

  26. “When wrath came out, the progression (and learning curve) was easy 200s (say, UK, Nexus), hard heroics (Halls of Lightning), Naxxramas.”

    Not for every one. I didnt do any heroics until well after being mostly nax 25 geared – I started with getting pvp epics from wintergrasp and by honour.

  27. Heroics are just easy plain and simple.. Gearscore is a great concept, but the way it’s implemented on my server (dalaran) is sad. I am giggidy with excitment when in 3 months time everyone under the sun will have a 2500+ gearscore, and wipin raids..

    🙂 “seeya at the repair bot”

  28. Heroics serve a few different purposes for level 80s. One is to gear up new level 80s. Item drops and badges where you can buy good, solid pieces is but one aspect of it. Learning the mechanics of your class in a group setting is another. Soloing and questing require certain specs and abilities which you may not use in raiding/heroics and you need to learn group mechanics for raids. The purpose that gets overlooked often is the fun. The game should be fun and even hard(ish) core raiders need a break every now and then. Right now I have one level 80 – a tree who is in a mix of ToC and ICC gear. Can she keep just about anyone up in most heroics – yes. Can I keep everyone up in the ICC 5s – not always and not if someone does something stupid (aka pull all the mobs on the ramp/before the tunnel in PoS because you think you are an uber tank). But I still like all the fives for the variety it provides and the runs it gives me with people in the guild who have no interest in raiding. Wow is a game and games should be fun. If everything is always so hard that most people can’t do it, it stops being fun and the reason to play is no longer there.

  29. If a new player in our guild were to come along with us on any Random Instance we would blow through it so fast with the 3-4 well geared toons we have he wouldn’t learn much in any case. Even tanking the fights wouldn’t last long enough for him to gain much knowledge as to how to do things.

    What use is an Instance that people blow through in 15 minutes to spend on class mechanics and learning? This is like saying lets go back to Uldaman to teach the tank what to do.

    I would add to this that Alts probably know the fights already, it is the gear they are after, the warrior may have a different perspective on the fight but the fight mechanics remain unchanged.

    Players probably learn the most when put under the greatest stress, and that isn’t heroics anymore. The biggest stress on a raider is wherever the guild he plays with is playing the progression game. As such anything that will speed his getting gear shouldn’t be a bad thing.

    Now if Blizzard made say ICC easier then perhaps it is dumbing down the game for the worse. However, in making the high end raids available without the gear grind, is something a new player will benefit from and enjoy. Players mostly want to join 9 or 24 of their friends and have fun.

    This is just a variation on the concept of “Whaaa Blizzard makes getting gear too easy, I want noobs to suffer as I did, they get it too easy… whaaa”

    One big change that was missing, a send me forward in time chat with Chromie in Culling of Strathholm so we could miss the game monologue.

  30. @Darthregis

    Even the low level dungeons are too easy. I remember back in the day dungeons were pain. God help doing strat -baron or scholo as a fresh 60, I lost count of the fail groups I got for those places. After a Disconnect and somone leaving we 3 manned the entire purple side mara. What’s worse is that at 45 as a Demo Lock with a couple heirlooms I know I could solo it. I’d probably find it easier as either of the other 2 lock specs. The main reason I’ve gone destro is that everything dies too fast, even bosses. I’m looking forward to 58 just because there might be a challenge in the TBC instances at least briefly as they are better tuned.


    They are making it easy. As weeks go on there will be a stacking buff as I understand it.
    .-= Echo´s last blog ..The new LFG system =-.

  31. The problem isn’t merely the heroics. It’s the difficulty curve, and how much people learn about playing their class in a group while leveling. The skipping of normal 80 instances that I’ve seen a lot of is certainly a factor, along with the same thing happening with much of Ulduar.

    At one point, I ran into a mage who did not know how to sheep, since it had never been needed in the heroic Wrath content she’d been doing.

    While I’ll admit that shorter heroics can be nice, short doesn’t equate to not requiring much for strategic or thoughtful behavior. Overall, though, the teaching needs to start much earlier than level 80.

  32. I have mixed feelings about this subject. On the one hand, I miss how hard the old 5-mans were. However, I didn’t know Blizzard intentionally nerfed them. I though they were easier because most toons are walking around with at least 232 gear. This upsets me that they’re intentionally easier because I’m still leveling alts.

    I use the 5-mans as segways into learning how to raid correctly on my alts. I try to figure rotations and such out on my own, so having the 5-mans nerfed isn’t helping me learn how to dps properly for raids.

    My main is a healer. On her, I’m glad the 5 mans are easier because I basically just want to get in, get my frost emblems for the day and get out. However, my alt rogue is a different story. I’ve heard a lot of people say rogues are easy to learn. And to a degree I don’t disagree. But it just sucks that a 2 minute boss fight, where I could have broken out all kinds of “kewl moves”, has been reduced to 30 seconds and I can barely get 5 stacks and a Eviserate off.

    Somone above stated that they wished there were hardmode 5-mans. I know this would never work logistically, but for fresh 80s, I wish it was a possibility.


  33. I’ve been playing wow for six months, and just hit 80 on my lock about a month or two ago. And I won’t be raiding anytime soon, though I’d love to. Picking up the game after Wrath was out, I’ve done BT and ZG, but was more interested in getting to 80 than raiding at 60 or 70.Even being pretty new to the game, I still think Heroics are too easy.

    When I started running heroics, most of them went fine – wipes were only because we were goofing off and/or it was 4 am, with few exceptions. For me it’s anything involving vehicle controls (Oculus, TOC) or FoS. Because everything else was so easy and tank-and-spank, I had no idea that there was something else I should be doing. Between all the spell reflecting, aoe, and the tactics for Bronjahm, I quickly declared it a horrid place and I never wanted to do it again.

    And of course, with lfd, I got into that every single day for a week. But after practice and some research, I finally got it down and I was so excited! Now I love that place, and PoS, and HoR because there’s some kind of challenge. There’s suspense.. can we do it? Are we gonna die? Is the Lich King going to hit me for 100000 damage? OMG we’re gonna make it! Yay! It’s exciting.. If I didn’t want the excitement I’d stick to real life.

    That’s why I want to raid. I find all the mechanics completely crazy and odd and creative and I want everyone to work together and figure out how to beat it. I don’t want to kill this super epic character in 30 seconds.. it’s just weird and uneventful.


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