Archetypes of a Guild: The Guild Egoist


Some of you may remember my article about the 5 Archetypes of Healers back when I was still a guest poster here.

I was watching a conversation on twitter between a few of my friends and it got me thinking. Like every social clique a Guild has certain roles or social archetypes that people can be categorized as. This post series will explore some of the more common ones you may encounter in your travels through MMOs, as well as offer suggestions on how to deal with some of the less savory. These posts come from a request made by Valkrierisen and Firewillow. I’ll add a disclaimer here, this is based on my observations over many years of multiple MMOs and pen and paper tabletop groups.

Today I’d like to talk about one of the bad personalities that people sometimes adopt, the Guild Princess. A Guild Princess is for all intents and purposes a  Prima Donna. This role is not gender specific in the sense of the player(both men and women can and do fit this role), but it’s almost always a in game female toon being played. The princess can be a destructive force in a guild, they can undermine authority and leadership, hold raids from starting on time, and can cause guild drama that can become something akin to Jerry Springer.Keep in mind this is an extreme, but it is something I’ve seen many times.

Now there are a few different varieties of a Guild Princess, lets take a look at them shall we?

The Prima Donna

This guild Egoist will usually attach themselves to the vulnerable player base of the guild, usually honing in on the more socially awkward ones first. They can often be found grinding or questing with this person and talking to them late night either in chat messages or even ventrillo/teamspeak. Prime targets are officers or people with power within the structure.  Once the person is enthralled enough, they move onto the next person. Sometimes they will find the other females in the guild and begin to cultivate friendships. They will often hide behind “solidarity” and try to build a  bond between the players, often times using a sob story or tear jerker to cement it. As with the first point, females in power or who are married to/dating someone in power in the structure is primary target.

This leads to two paths. First the person can and will usually try to use these relationships to get themselves elevated to a position of power, maybe a class lead or lower officer. If they can’t obtain the rank, they will settle for using the friendships they’ve had to get what they want, be it a raid spot, loot or the shunning of a guildie. If someone disagrees with them or doesn’t give up a raid spot or loot the princess wants, they will often times complain or cry to friends about how unfair they were and thus begin a social shunning of the “offender”. This same person will flirt with multiple males in the guild and sometimes throw them at each other when one has outlived their usefulness. They also have a tendency to think of their raid performance as above reproach and when presented with numbers indicating the level of improvement needed or that they are causing wipes, will often have a million excuses that are not their fault. They will often have long periods of being absent, especially during new encounters, but will still expect full loot rights.  Watch for canned responses, vague answers or sometimes even re use of an excuse.

How to Deal With the Prima Donna

This brand of Egoist is in the game for power. They want it, they want to be the center of it. There are a few ways to deal with it. If you notice the behavior above, tell your GM or a trustworthy officer right away your concern. The biggest thing for this one is to be proactive. Point out their behavior early so it gets noticed is key, this puts people on guard and allows officers to intervene if needed. This also helps to guard the rest of the guild from this behavior. Warn your close friends too, point out their interactions with other people as examples. Don’t get sucked into the sob stories that they lay out.  The worst thing you can do with this one is to do nothing at all.

The Vapid Vixen

This one is used to getting their way because they are a “female” in game. They use their sexuality to get what they want, be it loot, raid spots or whatever. When they don’t get what they want they are prone to pouting or tantrums. They are pretty much the spoiled brat of the guild. During raids they will often talk over encounter instructions, they often die to void zones, possibly even wipe raids all the while chatting away. They are used to being the center of attention and do everything they can to keep it, be it causing drama, holding up raids, talking with anyone that listens or even spouting random snippets or comments in chat or on vent. Anytime the lime light shifts away from them they try to do something to get it back, negative or positive it doesn’t matter as long as all eyes are on them. They are a disruptive force but often times it’s not intentional, they are just used to everyone dropping everything for them and expect it to continue on no matter where they are.

How to Deal With the Vapid Virago

If this behavior is proving disruptive quite simply, ignore them. They make an offhand comment not pertaining to the conversation? ignore it and continue on. They make a comment in vent or talk over instructions? stop talking. When they ask what’s wrong say nothing and continue on with the instructions. They throw a tantrum? After a short while they tend to learn that acting out gets them no where and they settle down. If they don’t settle down they tend to leave to find another stage to perform on.

The Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing

First of all I’d like to say that I respect any man capable of role playing a female accurately. I myself play a female toon, but I’m not certain I could ever accurately portray that in an RP environment.

With that said, this category is for the guys who play females toons and pretend to be female to get what they want. Their main motivation is usually one of the two aforementioned items (see Prima Donna and Virago above). Either they want power, or they want attention and they are using the pretext of a female toon and supposed female player to get them. Pretending to be female lets them prey on the socially awkward of the guild and fill the role of a Devious Diva or Vapid Vixen. They tend to be very open about sex and sexual conversations and will launch into graphic detail if prompted. They tend to be a bit more flirty, refuse to talk on vent (usually with an excuse of shyness or no mic), and tend to be promiscuous in the guild.

Dealing With the Wolf

The same rules for the Virago and the Prima Donna apply here with an added items. If they are being disruptive and causing issues and you want to get rid of them, catch them in the lie. Get them to talk on vent or make a comment that outs them. Usually they disappear shortly after they are found out to start over again somewhere else. It’s not easy but once it’s done they are 99.99999% likely to leave and be gone for good.

The guild princess can be a very disruptive force in your guild. Identifying them early can save your guild a ton of drama and keep things together. Letting them run rampant can splinter the guild and potentially the friendships that you’ve built up. I’ve seen it happen, and it’s not pretty. Find your guilds “Bad egg shute” and help direct them towards it.

Have you had to deal with a Prima Donna in guild? Have any interesting stories or experiences to share about a Guild Egoist?

Until next time,


Image of Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka courtesy of Paramount Pictures

66 thoughts on “Archetypes of a Guild: The Guild Egoist”

  1. Also beware that the Vapid Vixen may, in fact, be male – still out for attention, similar behaviors (especially in vent), sometimes even with inappropriate sex references/etc.

    None of these are actually gender specific, in my experience, and all can be quite poisonous if not nipped in the bud.

  2. @Anna hmm. perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough. The wolf in sheeps clothing tends to adopt one of the two personalities, either the diva or the vixen, as their cover. You’re right though it’s not gender specific and men can fall into those categories as well.

  3. @middea please see above where I said it is not gender specific (top of the post) and that both men and women can fill this role. My only comment really towards it was that it tends to be a female avatar in game. The use of She is as a generic pronoun

  4. Just because the top of the post says that it applies to both genders doesn’t work for the rest of the article. The rest of it “because they are a female voice on vent” and “They will often hide behind “girl power”” along with the continuous feminine terms, “vixen,” “diva,” and “princess” imply that this is predominantly a female issue.

    Occasionally there will be the odd man out, ‘Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing’ which you already discount in the article as being widespread because most guys can’t play a girl toon and RP a female that well…

    Overall the article is full of sweeping generalizations, discrimination, and is definitely slanted at this being a ‘female issue.’

  5. Well written and truthful article. It would seem the poster above read it with baggage and stereotyping in mind. Maybe she should remove her glasses and actually read the article without her own bias.

  6. I’ve seen the ‘Princess’ females – /ignore them, I do giggle as they spin those webs for the guys though – how do they fall for that is beyond me! And the guy Diva’s that make everyone wait on their specialness.

    Why do ‘female’ characters get treated differently? I get told just in game not vent that my females are hot, sexy, etc. ???? WHY??

    How about an article about inappropriate vent chat? Honestly guys that find it ‘okay’ to play porno in the background, ask the ladies what color their panties are, talk about bjs, their penis, etc., in mixed crowds and often with underage players – not a good thing.

  7. Being in guilds that have recruited almost half women and half men over the years, I have seen the above applied to both the genders. For example, I have seen a man play the role of a Vapid Vixen whilst playing a male toon using his experiences and sexuality to get what he wanted from the female players and, I have seen a woman play the Devious Diva. I can surely see how these, in my experience with them, can be applied to both sexes, but I think your defintions could have been displayed without the gender specific terminology in your explanations.

    Thank you for the thought provoking post however.
    .-= Napaeae´s last blog ..Gut Feelings and Drama =-.

  8. Being a married female ex-player myself, I find so much truth in this article that it isn’t funny. Honestly, and this might start a flame war by stating such, but the girls who get offended by this sort of statement tend to be the executioners of such ploys.

    There is a very good reason why top raiding guilds (at least in the past) refused to recruit female players.

    Although one statement made in the article can backfire on people: “Warn your close friends too, point out their interactions with other people as examples.” Been there, done that… ended up having the opposite reaction. Maybe I was just too late, I don’t know. Oh well.

    Great article. It’s great and also sad to see that this sort of behavior is trendy with others.

  9. This article does make some generalizations, but is overall true. I have been in more than one group that had been showing lots of potential until a “guild princess” started to manipulate things for her own benefit, many times directly targeting the guild leader.

    Often times these players are not terrible at DPS or healing (they are almost never tanks) from a numerical standpoint on encounters where they can just sit in one place and mash buttons, but their situational awareness often sucks and they falter on encounters that require it (often causing wipes). So while their numbers on recount or WWS don’t look so bad, the GOOD raiders in the guild start to notice that the princess doesn’t move out of lava waves, stands in void zones, doesn’t know how to use CC/fear/aggro control properly, is often zapping others on Thaddius, etc. etc.. They also will likely notice if the guild princess starts to receive more than her fair share of the loot.

    At which point, they will bring it up to the guild leader that they have some concerns. If the princess has succeeded, the leader and often many in the guild are already on her side, so these concerns will go unheeded. This eventually leads to the good players gquitting and applying for better guilds. If it goes on long enough, the guild is left as a shell of it’s former self. Eventually, some sort of drama surrounding the princess will occur and the guild will fall apart completely. It isn’t until it is too late that the majority of the guild realize what has happened!

    I’ve seen it happen many times. It has happened to guilds I was in, and it sucks to see guilds with potential blow up because of it.

    What is worst of all, however, is that after it happens to most players a few times, they begin to grow suspicious of ALL female players. So the end result is that these “princess” players end up hurting the game for the many women who try to play the game properly and approach raiding with the correct attitude.

  10. I’m not saying there are people that personify either of these types of archetype. I only took offense with the fact that all of it is displayed as female traits.

    Sure, girls do it, but guys do too.

    “but the girls who get offended by this sort of statement tend to be the executioners of such ploys.”
    Ugh. I’m disgusted as much as the next person by people who do act like this.
    But, it’s not just girls that do it.

    Is it more noticeable when a girl does it? Yes, but most girls tend to be under more scrutiny in a guild because we are, normally, outnumbered and a “rarity”.

    Guys do it so much more often and are rarely caught or noticed, making them more insidious imho.

    The slant of the article portrays it as a mainly female issue that “oh noes my guild just recruited a girl which type of “princess” is she???”

    The fact that because I reply as a female and therefore my responses and criticisms of the article are in opposition to the article, it must be because I am one of those archetypes just proves the point that it is a stereotype/generalization that does not need more feeding.

    In fact, the most prolific ones in recent personal guild history were all guys. And not only that, but guys with leadership roles. It’s been awhile since I have seen a female in guild fulfill either of these roles, over a year actually now that I do the math.

  11. Some people do behave these ways, but to assume there is negative/selfish intent behind it is incredibly one-sided.

    Some people just have brighter personalities. They like sharing things. They like talking to everyone and enjoy their other guild mates. We play this game to be social. And there is nothing wrong with extending that social nature to /whispers or hanging out and farming together. Everyone makes friends. Male and female is irrelevant. Assuming that because a female is hanging out with a male in private, she or he is attempting to gain something, is a horrible assumption.

    I could spend one-on-one time with just about any of my guild mates and be perfectly comfortable and content. I wouldn’t want anything but their company.

    To you, someone may sound persuasive. To that person, they’re probably just being who they are and speaking like they speak. Ever consider that perhaps you’re misinterpreting their intentions? Or…categorizing them…?

    In your “how to deal” sections, think of this scenario – someone who you categorize as a “Vixen” says something not pertaining to the raid, but that she thought was funny. Then you do as you suggest and ignore her.

    Then she feels like shit for trying to have fun and share something with the guild.

    I don’t think it’s wise for you to stereotype female players (and you do, as you state very clearly in the first two that they are for women, i.e. sexy voice, being alone with men, etc.) in this way, especially since there are so many socially awkward people playing this game who really just want to fit in somewhere and be appreciated, like anyone else in the world.

    Sure, there may be one or two of these manipulative, power-thirsty people about whose sole intention is to cause mayhem and disrupt the guild, but overall, intentions are usually good even if she has a “sexy” voice or likes to spend one-on-one time with her in-game friends.
    .-= Nassira´s last blog ..Understanding Your WWS Report Pt. 2 =-.

  12. I think a lot of the issue here is with the actual “terminology” – which is, in fact, rather stereotypically biased. (Knowing Lodur, I’m quite sure this is not intended to be a bashing of women in general or women in games!) Unfortunately, I don’t know that there is a non-gender loaded word for “princess” “diva” or “vixen” – both have gender connotations due to a long history of bullshit (more or less).

    Regardless, I don’t think the intent here was to bash women at all – and maybe that’s a problem with language and our culture not having a word for “histrionic, self centered, manipulative and attention-seeking person” that doesn’t have a gender connotation.

    ’cause really “How to deal with Histrionic, self centered, manipulative and attention-seeking persons of various types in your guild” is a really, REALLY terrible blog post name XD.

  13. “’cause really “How to deal with Histrionic, self centered, manipulative and attention-seeking persons of various types in your guild” is a really, REALLY terrible blog post name XD.”

    LOL, /agreed. And, I see where you’re coming from with the lack of neutral wording for the portrayed scenario after you put it that way.
    .-= Napaeae´s last blog ..Gut Feelings and Drama =-.

  14. Hmm. I have dealt with a Diva Tank before and somebody that flounced off my server because people weren’t handing him RP and instance runs on silver platters, but nothing nearly as bad as described here. I’ve heard stories enough to believe this is possible, and have stumbled across milder versions of these archetypes – and the mild ones are bad enough.
    .-= Matojo´s last blog ..In-Character Consequences and YOU! =-.

  15. Let’s rephrase it –

    How many people have you actually met who had the real intention of causing disruption and becoming a person of power?

    I mean…there’s Hitler, and then there are awkward gamer geeks. Basically, this article makes it sound like anyone who has these types of behaviors is attempting to thwart you, and you should single them out and hate on them.

    Honestly, I find the “insults everyone, doesn’t pull his weight, forms cliques, makes excuses” bit to be an extension of a personality, but it doesn’t have an ultimate goal.

    There aren’t really any Dr. Evils in this world.
    .-= Nassira´s last blog ..Understanding Your WWS Report Pt. 2 =-.

  16. Sure there are, “How to deal with Manipulative Members”

    Devious Diva = The Sweet Talker
    The Vapid Vixen = The Phony *can add Pony* if you want alliteration

    as for “the Guild Princess” hmmm. “guild brat” or even “guild narcissist” works. just off the top of my head though. sure if I put more thought into it I could come up with more non gender specific names to apply to them.

  17. Thank you Anna.

    I do appologize for my terminology. I in no way shape or form intended to bash women. I’ve seen this behavior in equal footing from both men and women, so it’s not supposed to be biased or slanted one way or another.

    As a writer of any sort trying to work within the confines of the available vocabulary and social context is difficult.

  18. Lodur –

    Perhaps you should change your terms then, before many women start being stereotyped and mocked in-game. I’m not being dramatic, either. Many people read this blog, and few will take it with a grain of salt. Many more will simply hear what they want to hear and use it to their advantage.

    Just a thought for you as a public writer who, I believe, did not intend to flame any minorities.
    .-= Nassira´s last blog ..Understanding Your WWS Report Pt. 2 =-.

  19. Reading the “Guild Princess” section was astounding. My previous guild, long ago, we had a person who fit your description entirely. Right down to the resents helpful suggestions for improving, or in her case – managing aggro.

    Spooky. Great post, overall. I don’t get hung up on the words you chose to convey the message, men can be princesses or divas, too.
    .-= Ysinnia´s last blog ..I don’t like Mondays =-.

  20. I’ve seen all this happening in previous guilds, but since I joined a guild run by 2 girls, with other 2 being officers, and a bunch more as members, I had no such issues.
    It’s all about the surrounding environment. When there are few girls amongst a bunch of guys, some might take advantage of their gender, and I bet it would happen if it was an all female guild with few men.
    With an even amount of both genders, it becomes a lot harder to use it as a tool to manipulate other members or the leaders. Being a minority that is desired by the majority gives u that opportunity.
    Gaming is still mostly a male environment, so an archetypical figure like this tend to be described as female, because it’s usually easier for a girl (in RL or not)to succeed with this behaviour.
    But the wolf in sheep’s clothing is certainly out there, and that shows that this kind of personality can occur in males or females. In gaming though they tend to adopt a female persona just because it’s easier to manipulate the majority of male personas in game.
    .-= Wangari´s last blog ..Speculation Cataclysm =-.

  21. “Histrionic” itself has gender connotations, coming from the root “hyster” which is also the root of “hysterical”. “hyster” means “womb” or “uterus”.

    Just sayin’.

  22. I think that, as much as we like to say otherwise, the majority (I’d say 90%) of people who do this in a “typical” male-dominated guild are female.

    In both of my guilds, I’ve been the only or one of two raiding females at any given time. And whenever we recruited a new female, she would often turn out to be a “diva” or a “princess” or what have you. I think that it is much more likely to occur in the one sex that is the underrepresented sex in a guild (IE: if a guild had more girls, more guys would do this). However, the three or so times that this has happened has made me very wary of female applicants.

    Am I biased? Yes. I would give ANY applicant a chance, girl or guy, but usually found that girls who play WoW will often play the game in the manners described above. However, saying all this, I know a few girls who are like me in that they just play to have fun.

    I do agree that some people jsut have “brighter” personalities and like to share things and talk on vent, and that not every girl who talks to an officer in a channel is trying to undermine the guild.

  23. Without meaning to derail the thread, Zhaysen, you have been misinformed of the etymology of “histrionic”. That word derives not from “?????” meaning “womb” but from the Latin “histrionicus” meaning “of or pertaining to a dramatic actor”, which itself comes from “???????”, meaning “an account of one’s inquiries, a narrative, a history”. In other words, being histrionic is being excessively dramatic, as Roman actors were wont to be.

  24. I’m currently at work and just reading different blogs to stay busy, so I didn’t “really” read in depth the article…. even tho I did see the “could be male or female” statement…. I did sense/feel that there was an overtone towards females.

    I’m not upset with what you wrote, but it did come off to me as a causal read anyways, to lean that way.

    FWIW, I’m male.

  25. Lodur, I took some time to think about what you have written in this post and I must say that it is a very interesting read. Several of things that you see when it comes to manipulation in game, whether by femals OR MALES can be described here.

    One of the officers in my guild is a female. To be honest, she doesn’t get along with a lot of other females in the game because of precisely this thought pattern. She has seen how this stereotype has affected her own game play and how it has actually, at times, made it much harder for her to gain respect that she deserves and tries to earn. However, having her critical eye in place has helped to spot a few troublemakers before they ended up blowing up the guild. We have been in existance for something like 4 years now and our core is still in tact. She has spotted no less than 3 disruptive forces within the guild that proscribe to, oddly enough, each of the 3 archetypes you spoke of in this post. Two were male and one was female, so as people can plainly see, it is NOT always the females that do this. It is rather evenly split, but women get the worst rap because they ARE the minority in the game and when someone sees something go wrong, they usually look for the outlier in the whole mess. A lot of times, even if it was NOT her fault, if a female is involved, the blame automatically switches over to them.

    Going back to the three, we had one ‘Wolf in Sheep’s Clothes’ who played the Diva, male who was simply a Diva and one female who was a princess. They were all equally disruptive to the guild structure but we were, fortunately, able to overcome it. Yes, we lost people because of all three incidents. The most recent was bad and we lost a person whom we all felt was a great player and friend. The princess did some damage to our forums and when he confronted her, she claimed ignorance and innocence. Thus, he left the guild because, being the young and awkward teenager that he was when he first joined, she was one of the first people to befriend him. We were all saddened by him leaving, but we learned from the experience.

    Lodur, the next archetype that I would like to hear your thoughts about is the actual Guild Egotist. The one that thinks his own crap doesn’t stink, his DPS is king, he knows everything about everyone’s class and won’t shut up about it.

    I would love to hear about that one. 🙂


  26. What an unpleasant post to wake up to. You really couldnt describe this personality archetype without being so mysogynistic?

    Mentioning offhand that this could be men as much as women does nothing to lessen the sting of the very negative tone and spiteful language.

    I’ve enjoyed World of Matticus so far for its solid, sensible content. This is not good content.

  27. I am now horribly confused. You have taken a good post with a non-gender neutral phrasing (but which can be applied by swapping genders though it sounds creepier) to both sexes, and replaced it with one in which the plot is very much confused.

    Pandering to mysogony / misandry is pointless, the article was fine and now its rather confused. Your point was sound, in largely male driven environment (last numbers I saw had at least 2/3rds of WoW raiders as male, but this may have altered) the guild princess (entitlement / defenseless complex) plays well from a female perspective but not so much from a male one, the male prima donna in this environment tends to play the role of quarterback (Tank prima donna, people put up with his crap because they know he will go into every fight prepared and will get his one wipe to sort the fight so that others can learn it), or long standing friend (in this case the prima donna is dragged along but is sidelined from any real power).

    In a more heavily female environment I have not seen the reverse work in the same way, there is typically little use of sexual innuendo to maintain the privilage but more typically becoming “one of the girls” which separates the male prima donna into someone that must be accepted and helped because they are part of the mainstream and thus “bullied” by the other guys (nightingale complex?).

    I have seen the prima donna in both genders, but there are distinct gender / environment differences in how it is applied, and alas “guild princess” was more accurate for the type of behaviour matticus wanted to describe than prima donna since the latter carries so many different stereotypes a lot of which are not based on the emotional manipulation or group dynamics that the guild princess stereotype is based on.
    .-= 2ndNin´s last blog ..On Retribution and burst =-.

  28. I think people are getting overly offended at this. Lodur may have included terms that insinuate female players are at fault here, but I don’t think he said anywhere that it was all females. He also mentioned that men could also fill these roles.

    He may have been writing with certain experiences in mind. These may have been female players. I have run into players that have used friendships to get power/loot. Those have been both female and male. I have run into players that have used sexuality to get power/loot. In my experience there have been more female players doing this. That is not to say that I think females are more likely to be morally bankrupt. I think it is just more likely that those female players were able to be successful in their attempts. Lets be honest, more boys (not men) play this game than girls (not women), and are more likely to fall for this. If it were true (I understand that my anectdotal experience is just that…) that more females fit these “archetypes,” I would think it is more due to the excessive amount of teenage boys playing than it is in the amount of females using their sexuality to advance themselves.

  29. Just want to throw my support in for Nassira and her points:
    Its not that we think you as a writer is doing this to slander the female gaming community, but when you are setting up categories that are supposed to be gender neutral – you need to do that: set up gender neutral categories.

    Drama Queen and Vapid Vixen is far from neutral. While I am sure you have no malice intent, your descriptions is also clearly based on mostly female gamers failling into these categories.
    The discussion you have entered is not primarily about guilds (as it is not really how it has been framed for the reader), its about gender. The followup post that would be interesting is not about other guild stereotypes, but what these stereotypes does to female players.

    After all, female gamers have to deal with these some way or another.
    .-= Kristine´s last blog ..What makes a hardcore gamer? =-.

  30. “How many people have you actually met who had the real intention of causing disruption and becoming a person of power?”

    Lots, both men and women (never saw the sex/seduction angle though). Not necesarily in game, I’ve seen them trying to climb the rungs of managment at large companies. Though I agree probably “causing disruption” is not their goal, but is a side effect they care nothing about preventing. Esp if that disruption removes a competitor. Usually if the people above him or her have a clue that person gets fired, but only after they’ve caused a lot of distress.

    I can see people doing this in game to gain power. Though yeah the whole “mainly female toons” is silly and not even true. As well as the descriptions of mainly females causing the problems.

  31. I have known Lodur personally for a long time and he is the least sexist guy I know.

    Moving on…

    I have experienced the skepticism that comes along with bringing a girl to the guild multiple times. Especially when that girl is brought in specifically because she is new to the game and needs to make some friends to level with while her boyfriend is raiding 5 nights a week. But every time I have been given a chance to just do my thing and let my personality come out and it has netted me some great in-game friendships and people to learn from. I have also been scrutinized heavily by guildmates who were convinced that I was there to spy on them when my boyfriend (then the guild master) was offline or who tried to talk through guild raiding issues with me instead of the officers. Again, I let my normal personality come out and they went away. And I always refer issues that are none of my business back to the GM and the officers. If it doesn’t involve me as a level 55 newb, leave me out of it.

    The guilds I have been involved with almost always end up with more drama from the men than the women and usually it’s because their egos get bruised over dumb things like who does more DPS, who has better gear, etc. (Yes I’m a new player so these things mean squat to me at this point – just let me play to learn first). But feelings will get hurt wherever people have strong ties. So the people who fail at life (bad interpersonal and reasoning skills) are the people who generally fail at game life as well. There will always be people who prey on the weak ones. The strong ones need to know how to recognize it and say something for the good of the guild.

  32. Very accurate post. I’m a female, and not offended at all by what you wrote.

    Yes… yes I have had to deal with “Prima Donnas” before. The reason I ever server transferred in the first place could be largely in part credited to one such person.

    My description is kind of spotty because I’m not very keen on bringing memories back to the surface, but here it is.

    This girl had been in the guild a long time by the time I joined. For a long time she ignored me for the most part, until the guild started having some troubles and I started befriending a fellow Hunter who fit your description of the insecure one. She then proceeded to first flirt with him then (very obviously) ditch him to go questing with other people … this was when WotLK just came out and most of us were still working on getting to 80. My friend got really upset (understandably) and vowed not to trust her again, but within a month she was back and I was facepalming. She rejected him several more times (he once dropped a profession to level Jewelcrafting in 3 hours because she had said she wanted a particular gem cut, then shortly before he was finally able to cut the gem, she got one as a ‘gift’ from another male outside the guild.) When our guild had issues in Naxx due to lag (remember those days?) she took it as an excuse to prompt a mass gquit, and she along with several of the guys she had toyed with all transferred to Winterhoof (one of the new servers). There was quite a bit of drama involved in the end, and since several of the people who transferred were my friends, I ended up going elsewhere in the name of progression and a new start.

  33. I was in a guild for a few months (due to my old guild merging with this one) where the guild leader was a female ret paladin. She only allowed one ret paladin per raid (herself) even in 25 mans. If the run wasn’t going smooth she would drop out of the raid and get someone else in. She cherry picked her 10 man raids with the best geared players instead of mixing groups so that everyone could get geared quicker.

    In her mind the guild revolved around her and was there to serve her. Though I’m sure she would never admit it publicly, her actions indicated differently.

    @Lodur, I’m sorry that your attempt to add humor into a post using stereotypes backfired. I enjoyed the original post… in fact I thought this was a new post, instead of an edited politically correct version.

    I’ve played with people with bubbly personalities that could be mistaken for the above… but I’ve played with many, male and female alike, that seek only to serve themselves.
    .-= Whats my main again?´s last blog ..A letter for home. =-.

  34. Did I mention how I knew a “wolf in sheep’s clothing?” He actually pretended to be a girl. Got guys to order him pizza, cyber’d (in text, of course), the works. When his guild found out he left asap and actually leveled a new toon on a different faction.

  35. @tulani we had one too when I first started in my guild almost 4 years go. Never spoke in vent, and flirted with / cybered with 2 real life friends. They tore apart the friendship and as soon as someone in guild found out they were a guy, bolted to level horde on another server. It’s sad but it does happen.

  36. All of these I have seen in my guild and all 3 are female IRL (not that males don’t do this but this is my experience so far) and they have pretty much killed the guild in every way you can think of. The GM unfortunately allows all of it to happen and has by his refusal of dealing with these people lost the core group of two different raiding timeframes (TBC and now Wrath)

    It is absolutely amazing how you nailed those types and with the exact details of what they’ve done in our guild. After 3 years I’ve finally had enough and left just so I could actually get something done and have fun again in the game.

  37. I always find it funny how people can read something and suddenly take offense. Maybe it’s because they see some part of themselves in that post, something they relate to that makes them feel like they are personally under fire.

    Almost every word has some sort of gender connotation attached to it. If Lodur had said, the guild asshole, most people would assume he is talking about a guy. Why? Because 90% of the game is made up of males.

    If Lodur had decided to make this post about the insane raid leader, the asshole, the jerk, and how to handle them would you be here preaching against how the terms implied male behavior and that they needed to be replaced? I seriously doubt it.

    In the community I live in adjectives such as drama queen and princess don’t imply being a woman.

    I’m not trying to be rude or discount any ones opinion, just offer a different perspective for you. Try not to be so critical when the author prefaced with the point he wasn’t trying to attack anyone. Simply making observations and how to handle situations if you find yourself in them.
    .-= Xeonio´s last blog ..Love the Conversations =-.

  38. I find this article very disappointing. Despite stating from the outset that a person of either gender can be a Guild Princess, you go on to make it pretty clear how WOMEN use their sexuality to get ahead. You have a woman in the article header picture, and most of the paragraphs use feminine pronouns. It’s really hard for me to imagine a man doing any of these things, especially considering that Ventrilo (which you mention as one of the princess’s tools) outs people’s gender. It’s really not clear how a man could ever adapt to these stereotypes, except the final “wolf.”

    Also, learn your vocab. A “virago” is a manly woman–an Amazon, a warrior woman–a girl who acts like a boy. You’d find your online viragos playing male characters. This is no kind of synonym for “vixen”–someone who uses her personal attractiveness and “animal” sexuality to gain advantages. Like bitch, vixen is a term for a female animal, and thus is an odd insult/compliment that dehumanizes women even as it emphasizes their attractiveness.

    I also find the “wolf in sheep’s clothing” very offensive. First, I think players have a right to roleplay in either gender. I play toons I find aesthetically pleasing, and if I were playing horde, I’d probably have a boy blood elf alt. Calling these people “wolves” is not very nice. Why should my cartoon avatar have to represent the person behind it “accurately”? And why are men wolves and women sheep?

    Basically, your list of stereotypes supports the very common policy of excluding women from raiding guilds on account of “drama.” This is something I’ve fought against in the several raiding guilds I’ve been a part of. Does that make me a virago or a wolf of another sort? I think not.

    And on the sexuality question–sexual jokes and innuendos are a part of the raiding scene, especially when you factor in ventrilo. These kind of jokes can be very funny and not very offensive, and they are mostly harmless banter among grown-ups of the type you’d be able to find in any bar or party scene. I wouldn’t expect an ideal woman player never to make an off-color joke. That’s a very different thing from exchanging real or potential favors for items and the distinction should be made clear. Your article makes it sound like any representation of sexuality in-game has a sinister purpose. I’d be hard-pressed to find any potential for personal gain behind, say, the multiple ASCII pictures of boobs that get posted in Ulduar general chat.

  39. @ Pandalin: I don’t want to come down too harsh on you, but please re-examine what you’ve said here:

    “Honestly, and this might start a flame war by stating such, but the girls who get offended by this sort of statement tend to be the executioners of such ploys.”

    What you’re doing is perpetuating an old technique used by people in power to keep the underclass down. I’ve seen the same logic applied to arguments like: “all women on the internet are fat and ugly.” Eventually, someone will come out with the gem that “if you’re offended by this, you must be fat and ugly.” This effectively discourages people from expressing their very valid objections to the point.

    If I say “all members of X minority are criminals” I’m clearly being reductive and downright mean. If a member of X minority protests, does it follow that he/she is a criminal? At some point, people come to think that the act of protest itself is a crime, and we get a system where any objections to the powers that be–even peaceful ones–become punishable.

    I have never used my gender to get one.damn.thing in the game. In fact, I think I’d probably get more loot from my guild’s Loot Council if I pretended to be a man! Women face a lot of discrimination in the online world. It’s fine if you have an opinion, but please do not use such tactics to discourage people who might disagree with you. Those who are not able to analyze the situation might fall for it. “Well, I guess I’d better not stand up for myself, because that makes me a vixen!” I’m not looking for any superior status for women players here–only an equal one–and that includes the freedom to express my opinion.

  40. The point is this: There are people that use several factors including but not limited to the gender of their toon, their relationships to other people, their personalities, their ability to tell a good story, etc., as a means of gaining power, loot, raid spots or whatever else in guilds and this type of behaviour can be a guild-breaker. It’s a real problem.

    And yes, sometimes people do use their real-life gender to get their own way. These selfish folks of both genders are your Guild Princesses/Princes (for the terminology-minded), Prima Donnas and Wolves in Sheeps’ Clothing. WiSC isn’t a RP thing – Lodur wasn’t saying it was – it’s men pretending to be women in order to get gold, items, gear, raid spots and whatever else they want. I have heard of people being tricked by that.

    Anybody with half a brain realizes that not all girl gamers are like this. They are a minority, they are a loud minority, but the people that immediately equate “woman” with “trouble” aren’t worth the time of day anyway. 😛

    Yes, I am a female gamer.

    I apologize for contributing to dragging this on!

  41. These comments were fantastic. However, I’d like to point a critical eye to those that support these destructive forces, ignorantly or aware of what is happening. I’m a female raider, and I was a raid leader and an officer, but my voice wasn’t enough to stop the GM or the male officers from succumbing to some princess and a vixen or two that eventually caused me and other top raiders to gquit.

    So, while the princesses, divas and vixens are forces to be reckoned with, slap around your fellow players that fall for their ploys, k? Call them on their blindness, and warn them of what *could* be going on. The minute they are weak and start to preferentially treat these personalities in raid or guild, call it out.

    Especially if its involving guild officers.

  42. I love this discussion. No I’m not going to censor Lodur. What kind of bloggers would we be if we always wrote posts that agreed with everyone? The point here is to make you think. Its to challenge your assumptions and what you feel is the status quo. You’re not always going to agree with him. I’ve written posts that Syd and Lodur don’t agree with. Vice versa as well.

    Take a step back.

    Could it have been worded better? Probably. But dig deep and look for the intent of his post. Try to understand where he’s coming from. He’s said it many times that he means no disrespect to women at all. In fact there are several who don’t take offense and there are several of you that are outraged (both genders, even). Not all girls are like this. I’ve raided with a lot of great ones, some better than myself even. Yes, there are some terms that aren’t so gender neutral. Lord knows I use my awesome sexy figure to get all the epics I want, right? Just take a second and try to understand that he’s not going out of his way to intentionally piss you off. Writers have no desire to shoot themselves in the foot. Believe me. Then, if you’re still going to take exception, by all means.

  43. Thankfully, a bad relationship with my ex gf (which I haven’t truly recovered from) has awarded me a sense of immunity from all of this.

    Sorry girls, Matt is non-seduceable. You’ll just have to work hard for your epics. ^^

  44. Thank you matt and everyone else. I had no intention of aggravating or alienating anyone. To me, terms like diva, princess and vixen have been thrown around not only for females but males as well. I’ve done my best to describe a destructive force that is NOT all female gamers. To be perfectly honest, I love my female raiders. They come prepared and give their all every single raid. They are awesome to play with, joke with and we always have a good time. NONE of them fit into these categories. They fit into the category of a Dedicated Raider, which is another post coming.

    I have experienced these personalities before though, all of them and they have been both male and female. I have seen these personalities both male and female tear a guild apart.

    So here’s the deal. I apparently upset a lot of people. I’m going to throw a gauntlet down. My next post in this series will be up either later tonight or tomorrow. In the mean time If you can reword this article and keep the same principles in tact the same general idea and do it in such a way that doesn’t alienate anyone, please go ahead. Yes I’m aware that I could have worded this better. But if anyone wants to take a crack at it, please do so. We are challenged in a world where our very vocabulary is gender biased, less so in recent years as the sexual connotation of some terms have grown to encompass both sexes and multiple sexual orientation, but it still carries that weight.

    Again I am sorry for anyone I may have offended

  45. @Lodur: I’m writing my own response to your post, which you’ll see soon.

    I don’t mean to imply that your intentions are bad, but I will say that the execution absolutely left me cold. You’ll just have to wait for the 1000-word version for the full explanation as to why.

  46. Wow…a lot of comments. I read the original blog post before any of the comments had been posted, I’m a woman, and none of it really offended me at all. I was actually surprised to see Sydera’s strong negative reaction, but I don’t find fault with any of her points either.

    Really I just came to post here because I realized that Lodur’s guild is trying to recruit me through WoWMatcher. I thought that guild name looked familiar when I saw the email. 😛

  47. If you notice a woman chatting a lot to other guildies, do you think that she seems friendly and extroverted, or do you think, uh-oh, potential “vixen”? Let’s say that maybe she makes some mistakes in the next raid, and you give her some criticism, and like many people, when taken off guard by criticism, acts a bit defensive. Oh no, she’s offering excuses – that’s strike 2. The next day, she “makes a comment not pertaining to the conversation” (I imagine the conversation is very serious and manly), boom, strike 3. She’s out! Another power-hungry manipulator routed.

    One thing to keep in mind is that there is a great deal of subjectivity inherent in human interactions, and when you come in with some notion about “princesses”, “vixens” and other bogeywomen, that may color all of your future interactions with women in a way that may make your stereotypes self-fulfilling.

  48. I really don’t believe in stereotyping people, whether I like them or not. Moreover I think you people just have really bad luck, as the last time I met a “bad” person in WoW was months ago, and yes I’m an avid player. Still, pretty entertaining read.

  49. Thankfully we don’t have any of these in my guild at the moment. For years I knew a player who constantly flirted with male officers in attempt to get loot. Often it worked. She was a healer, and I saw other healers quit when they were consistently passed over on loot for her. She even toyed with one officer’s emotions so much that he finally ended up quitting the game.

    One of our current players was a suspected Wolf for some time. She claimed to not talk on vent because she didn’t want to get hit on, yet the first thing she did when joining the guild was post a picture of herself. For someone who claims to not want “that kind of attention” she sure flirts a lot with specific players. We’re now pretty sure she is female, not a guy in disguise. However, she doesn’t get preferential treatment and her antics haven’t caused any issues (possibly because I’ve called her out on it several times). It’s rare that players like these don’t cause severe issues though, and I monitor such players very closely.

  50. Wangari – “but since I joined a guild run by 2 girls, with other 2 being officers, and a bunch more as members, I had no such issues. It’s all about the surrounding environment.”

    Women can typically identify the manipulations of other women quite easily. Maybe that’s one reason my guild has been clean of vixens and divas since I started running things. Having at least one female officer can help.

  51. “Wow…a lot of comments. I read the original blog post before any of the comments had been posted, I’m a woman, and none of it really offended me at all.

    Read more:

    Its not about beeing personally offended. Its not like some commenters have suggested, that the only girls to complain are those who feel that this hit a bit too close to home.

    I think we have all met women that falls into the categories of OP. What we are refuting is that these categories are gender neutral, that these stereotypes are as valid for men as for women.
    .-= Kristine´s last blog ..What makes a hardcore gamer? =-.

  52. Sorry for dragging this on, but:

    “If Lodur had decided to make this post about the insane raid leader, the asshole, the jerk, and how to handle them would you be here preaching against how the terms implied male behavior and that they needed to be replaced? I seriously doubt it.”

    You’d be unlikely to find people complaining about that because, at least according to the last statistic I’ve seen, male players are the majority in the gaming world. The majority can very rarely say that they have been discriminated against – I sincerely doubt that many men encounter difficulties in being accepted and trusted in their raiding guilds because of their gender. Why should men feel threatened if the words “jerk” or “asshole” imply gender specificity?
    As pandalin said, “Top raiding guilds (at least in the past) refused to recruit female players.” Have you ever heard that said about a man? I didn’t think so.

  53. While I have seen examples of all of these archetypes… who hasn’t? Generalizations are based on broad enough observations that anyone could easily latch on to them. See what I did there?!

    I agree that there are a lot of interesting and strange characters we meet while playing this game, but there are a lot of great ones as well. The bad tends to stick out more than the good, in life, in wow, in anything really! – it’s human nature. However, I am quite a bit offended by this post as a female player that has not encountered a male that can outperform me at my role in game and that has always been a humble team player. I have been in some very good guilds as a raider, an officer and a healing leader.

    I think the one thing that made me so effective in a position of authority was that new people would expect the perky-voiced female officer to be a push-over, but if need be I would call you out on your errors and any BS before you might have noticed your error yourself. They took on some of these generalizations about female players and I’m more than sure I jolted them out of these.

    I really wish I could have found a stable and successful raid environment to stick with, because switching guilds and earning respect as a player is hard for a woman. Women start at -5, whereas men generally start at 0. I don’t mind working harder as it has made me someone to contend with in-game and in life, but I hope people reading these types of blogs will become aware of the danger and harm that comes from accepting generalizations about people. They prevent you from forming your own opinions and observations and are easily reinforced by even 1 bad encounter despite several positive ones.

  54. Many people will not understand the purpose of this post, like my GM did, and he told me he read here, and classified me the way you did, specially because I´m a female.
    I will resume the history a little bit.
    In my guild, after our GM left the game and gave leadership to hes Co GM, raiding has been really unpleasant, we get called names every single raid, such as: idiots, retards, useless, worthless,jackasses, etc
    A total lack of respect towards people that are adults with family,job, and rl concerns, and play this game for the fun of it.

    If we do a good job, we dont get not even a pat in the back, instead we get: about time, retards!

    I lost my patience and trying to make them understand that treating us like that was wrong, I started to say on vent/raid chat how unpleasant was to be treated like that , and I actually got a feedback from the majority of the players .

    After having a really bad time on our last raid I couldn´t take it anymore and I went to talk to my GM so see if he could do something about it. He treated me really cold, and told me my “Guild princess crown” was about to be taken.
    and he referred this post.

    If you are GM with problems in your guild, use your common sense while reading this.
    Actually, Lodur , please, I admire you a lot, and I like your posts a lot, so, one of these days, try to write a post about Blind GM´s that agrees with bad behavior on officers, about respect, about actually taking care of people, specially when they are good players.

  55. Excellent article, although I prefer to deal with these type of people, male or female, the same way I deal with all other issues: head on. Beating around the bush and hoping that they pick up on the clues isn’t in my nature and it’s the long way around an issue that needs to be nipped in the bud. For instance, waiting for someone to realize that she’s the only one talking in Vent while we’re in the middle of a raid wastes everyone’s time. I prefer to call attention to the type of behavior they’re displaying and tell them to knock it off and shut up. I’m a woman and I don’t accept that kind of behavior from males OR females.
    .-= Wowmomma´s last blog ..10 Ways to Get the Most Out of the Refer A Friend Program =-.


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